Insurers for musicians?

anotherbob

I just tried to add my son as an extra driver on my wife's policy with Tesco, but they declined because he is a self-employed musician. Can anyone recommend an insurer I could try. The car is only a small Kia, and his use of it would be infrequent.

Sandtree

Your into specialist broker space

Adrian Flux will be the closest to a household name who deal with a range of non-standard motor risks but there are more targeted companies out there

You can still use aggregators (eg confused.com) to double check the mainstream direct providers as some will take on risk for an additional premium.

Ebe_Scrooge

Is your son a full-time musician, or does he do something else as well?  I'm just wondering whether you could "legally" tinker with the job title, as described in this article: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/insurance/car-insurance-job-picker/

It may be a non-starter, but just wondered whether it may be worth looking into?

As an aside, I'm surprised that a musician is classed as a high-risk insurance prospect.  The potential claim for damaged instruments/equipment would be small compared to the tens of thousands that can come out of personal injury claims (unless he's carrying a Stradivarius around!).  I wonder if it's to do with the perceived lifestyle?  Though even then, a violinist with the Royal Philharmonic would, I image, be a different prospect to an archetypal heavy rocker high on drink and drugs lol (tongue in cheek there - I know it's based on cold hard statistics, not perception.  Although "musician" covers a wide range of activities).  Not that it matters, it just got me curious.

Sandtree

Ebe_Scrooge said:

As an aside, I'm surprised that a musician is classed as a high-risk insurance prospect.  The potential claim for damaged instruments/equipment would be small compared to the tens of thousands that can come out of personal injury claims (unless he's carrying a Stradivarius around!).  I wonder if it's to do with the perceived lifestyle?  Though even then, a violinist with the Royal Philharmonic would, I image, be a different prospect to an archetypal heavy rocker high on drink and drugs lol.  Not that it matters, it just got me curious. 

Items in your car only have a token £250 or less limit typically so the Stradivarius isn't an issue.

The issue is global rockstar/DJ and just scraping by as a session musician for elevator music aren't differentiated (in the same way as any other role) and the concern is the lifestyle/image... don't want to pay the injury claims as the rockstar attempts to escape fans mobbing their car or the thieves who see it as a potential trophy -v- a regular Ford Escort (like Diana's car going for £52k)

You could argue that there are equally big differences between being a CEO of a record label to the CEO of a plastic factory but there is only so much segmentation you can do. Plus, there are many who aren't get global rockstars or DJs who think they are on the cusp of making it and potentially adopted some of the attitudes/risky behaviour 

DB1904

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Is your son a full-time musician, or does he do something else as well?  I'm just wondering whether you could "legally" tinker with the job title, as described in this article: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/insurance/car-insurance-job-picker/

It may be a non-starter, but just wondered whether it may be worth looking into?

As an aside, I'm surprised that a musician is classed as a high-risk insurance prospect.  The potential claim for damaged instruments/equipment would be small compared to the tens of thousands that can come out of personal injury claims (unless he's carrying a Stradivarius around!).  I wonder if it's to do with the perceived lifestyle?  Though even then, a violinist with the Royal Philharmonic would, I image, be a different prospect to an archetypal heavy rocker high on drink and drugs lol (tongue in cheek there - I know it's based on cold hard statistics, not perception.  Although "musician" covers a wide range of activities).  Not that it matters, it just got me curious.

Young driver, driving evenings and late nights. I'm not. 

Ebe_Scrooge

DB1904 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Is your son a full-time musician, or does he do something else as well?  I'm just wondering whether you could "legally" tinker with the job title, as described in this article: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/insurance/car-insurance-job-picker/

It may be a non-starter, but just wondered whether it may be worth looking into?

As an aside, I'm surprised that a musician is classed as a high-risk insurance prospect.  The potential claim for damaged instruments/equipment would be small compared to the tens of thousands that can come out of personal injury claims (unless he's carrying a Stradivarius around!).  I wonder if it's to do with the perceived lifestyle?  Though even then, a violinist with the Royal Philharmonic would, I image, be a different prospect to an archetypal heavy rocker high on drink and drugs lol (tongue in cheek there - I know it's based on cold hard statistics, not perception.  Although "musician" covers a wide range of activities).  Not that it matters, it just got me curious.

Young driver, driving evenings and late nights. I'm not. 

That's kind of my point.  The term "musician" could equally apply to the aforementioned 55-year-old, church-going, pillar-of-society, principal violinist in the RPO.  The "young" bit, fair enough, that's taken into consideration as a separate risk in it's own right.  "Mainly driving late at night" - a very fair point.

I know insurance risk-profiling is a very complicated and apparently esoteric process.  Sandtree also makes some very good points.  As I say, just curious 

Sandtree

Ebe_Scrooge said:
I know insurance risk-profiling is a very complicated and apparently esoteric process. 

Its really not for mass market consumer general insurance (and the vSME end of business insurance)... the risk premium that makes up the majority of the consideration is very simply based on statistical analysis... our claims exposure (total claims paid out considering frequency and amount) for 40 year olds is twice that of 20 year olds when all else is equal? You charge them double.

The maths get complex when you are considering if factors are linked or independent but the principle at the first level is simple and certainly not esoteric 

Unfortunately people have this idea that there are a bunch of people locked in a room debating the relative pros and cons of parking on a driveway -v- a residents car park to come up with the relative rating factor. In reality this only ever happens when someone has a bright idea to add a new rating factor (eg credit score - the only real world use I've ever come across it) and even then the general idea will be to try and source the data for the back book but if data protection or such stops that then you go in with light rating factors, gather data and revisit as soon as you start to develop a book of data.

There are other factors beyond risk that modify the price, some obvious like IPT, some like propensity/ elasticity modelling/ testing but again most of these are statistical analysis rather than black magic (that's reinsurance).

If you get into commercial insurance, long term insurance like Annuities etc then the Actuaries get involved a lot more because either the data doesn't exist or you are trying to project forward as to what'll life expectancy be in 2040?

Grey_Critic

*** I'm surprised that a musician is classed as a high-risk insurance prospect.  The potential claim for damaged instruments/equipment would be small compared to the tens of thousands***

No surprise at all - Insurance company do not differentiate between Mick Jagger and the guy who entertains you down the pub. Ask anyone in car hire and they will be able to produce a long list of professionals they are unable to insure. My youngest so listed himself as a Graphic Artist not Artistic Director - As someone suggests it is all in the Job Title.

YBR

Ebe_Scrooge said:

IAs an aside, I'm surprised that a musician is classed as a high-risk insurance prospect.  The potential claim for damaged instruments/equipment would be small compared to the tens of thousands that can come out of personal injury claims (unless he's carrying a Stradivarius around!). 

Any "fine" instrument will have have specialist instrument insurance. My violin has no maker's name and with it's bow, case etc is worth under £5K but it's still with a specialist insurer. That's because they're more likely to be sensible about repair/replacement than a household policy who will "write it off" at the drop of a hat, or offer "new for old" when the last thing you want is a brand-new violin!
It might be less likely to apply to an electric guitar, for example, but I would not expect to claim on car insurance for musical instruments of much value.

Grumpy_chap

Sandtree said:

Its really not for mass market consumer general insurance (and the vSME end of business insurance)... the risk premium that makes up the majority of the consideration is very simply based on statistical analysis... our claims exposure (total claims paid out considering frequency and amount) for 40 year olds is twice that of 20 year olds when all else is equal? You charge them double.

I may be reading that incorrectly - you seem to be saying that total paid out for 40 yo is higher than 20 yo, yet young drivers are the ones that get the loaded premium.  The two don't tally.

Sandtree said:

If you get into commercial insurance, long term insurance like Annuities etc then the Actuaries get involved a lot more because either the data doesn't exist or you are trying to project forward as to what'll life expectancy be in 2040?

I certainly hope that the actuaries dealing with anything I ever have are looking far beyond 2040...

Sandtree

Grumpy_chap said:

Sandtree said:

Its really not for mass market consumer general insurance (and the vSME end of business insurance)... the risk premium that makes up the majority of the consideration is very simply based on statistical analysis... our claims exposure (total claims paid out considering frequency and amount) for 40 year olds is twice that of 20 year olds when all else is equal? You charge them double.

I may be reading that incorrectly - you seem to be saying that total paid out for 40 yo is higher than 20 yo, yet young drivers are the ones that get the loaded premium.  The two don't tally.

Not reading it wrong, I just can't multi-task so its the inverse

Grumpy_chap said:
I certainly hope that the actuaries dealing with anything I ever have are looking far beyond 2040...

Unlikely that the actuaries for a car insurer are looking beyond 2040 other than the capital modellers because its short tail risk. Even with capital it'll be light because its short tail risk it is virtually all highly liquid/short duration stuff unlike life & pensions that have real estate and long term funds in the mix.

For annuities the absolutely its beyond 2040, all I have seen work on a 150 year horizon but then this is required for pricing and not just capital.