New Gas Boiler

Zandoni

BUFF said:

Zandoni said:

BUFF said:

but a new boiler + new controls all properly set up & used might (mine has over it's 13 year life so far & I reckon that the latest controls could probably eke out another 10% saving in gas usage) depending upon what was already fitted.

You can use the latest controls like Hive or Nest with an old boiler, a new boiler can never pay for itself in gas useage, it will need replacing again well before it get's the chance.

In my experience people seem to take out service contracts so repair bills don't really come into the equation.

Yes, but it is unlikely that the energy savings would pay for the cost of fitting the latest controls at this stage in this boiler's life before it needs replaced. Hive or Nest don't really give me much over what I have now (e.g. neither will.do bus level communication with my Worcester boiler) & tbh I would be unlikely to go with either of those brands anyway.
If e.g. I go with Worcester branded controls (which are no dearer) fitted at the same time as a new Worcester boiler then not only would I get bus level communication but they are also guaranteed for the same length as the boiler (could be up to 12 years) subject to the usual requirements to maintain the boiler guarantee.

I didn't say that a new boiler could pay for itself over it's life, I said "a new boiler + new controls all properly set up & used might" & so they have done in my case, I attribute a large part of that to the controls. I have also said my next upgrade won't - it depends where you are coming from to start.

Service contracts that include "no additional cost" repairs have already figured in the likely cost of any repairs otherwise the companies go bust (or they have a get out clause). My boiler has needed no repairs in it's 13 years, at this stage in it's life any required repairs would likely influence a repair/replace decision depending upon cost.

I’m certainly not convinced, I’d get a hive and when the boiler finally dies use the same controller on the new boiler. What do you mean by bus level control?

Mstty

BUFF said:

Mstty said:

@BUFF @Brewer21 @matelodave

For us ASHP is now cheaper to run than gas. Our previous 3 bed link detached house heated to the same temps and using all the same gadgets would, under the new price capped rates, come out to £2359. Our current projection for our new house is £2132

Good for you & I am glad that it works for you.
It's unlikely to be a solution for me as I live in a row of terraced houses in a Conservation Area.
I already have larger sized radiators though which is 1 reason why I can run low flow/return temps on my boiler to max. efficiency.

As a comparison at current SVR rates my projected annual gas bill (for a normal year not the very mild last year) will be <£700.

Buff sorry didn't realise this was your post I think I already read somewhere about your house I thought I was responding to the OP original post and wanted them to know it could work for them and worth investigating imo.

BUFF

Zandoni said:

BUFF said:

Zandoni said:

BUFF said:

but a new boiler + new controls all properly set up & used might (mine has over it's 13 year life so far & I reckon that the latest controls could probably eke out another 10% saving in gas usage) depending upon what was already fitted.

You can use the latest controls like Hive or Nest with an old boiler, a new boiler can never pay for itself in gas useage, it will need replacing again well before it get's the chance.

In my experience people seem to take out service contracts so repair bills don't really come into the equation.

Yes, but it is unlikely that the energy savings would pay for the cost of fitting the latest controls at this stage in this boiler's life before it needs replaced. Hive or Nest don't really give me much over what I have now (e.g. neither will.do bus level communication with my Worcester boiler) & tbh I would be unlikely to go with either of those brands anyway.
If e.g. I go with Worcester branded controls (which are no dearer) fitted at the same time as a new Worcester boiler then not only would I get bus level communication but they are also guaranteed for the same length as the boiler (could be up to 12 years) subject to the usual requirements to maintain the boiler guarantee.

I didn't say that a new boiler could pay for itself over it's life, I said "a new boiler + new controls all properly set up & used might" & so they have done in my case, I attribute a large part of that to the controls. I have also said my next upgrade won't - it depends where you are coming from to start.

Service contracts that include "no additional cost" repairs have already figured in the likely cost of any repairs otherwise the companies go bust (or they have a get out clause). My boiler has needed no repairs in it's 13 years, at this stage in it's life any required repairs would likely influence a repair/replace decision depending upon cost.

I’m certainly not convinced, I’d get a hive and when the boiler finally dies use the same controller on the new boiler. What do you mean by bus level control?

a) I am convinced though & that I know about bus level control & you don't suggests that I know more than you.
Opentherm or similar (on Bosch Group products it is EMS which is proprietary).
https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/news/opentherm-explained

b) as I have stated I am not a fan of Hive (or Nest)

BUFF

Mstty said:

BUFF said:

Mstty said:

@BUFF @Brewer21 @matelodave

For us ASHP is now cheaper to run than gas. Our previous 3 bed link detached house heated to the same temps and using all the same gadgets would, under the new price capped rates, come out to £2359. Our current projection for our new house is £2132

Good for you & I am glad that it works for you.
It's unlikely to be a solution for me as I live in a row of terraced houses in a Conservation Area.
I already have larger sized radiators though which is 1 reason why I can run low flow/return temps on my boiler to max. efficiency.

As a comparison at current SVR rates my projected annual gas bill (for a normal year not the very mild last year) will be <£700.

Buff sorry didn't realise this was your post I think I already read somewhere about your house I thought I was responding to the OP original post and wanted them to know it could work for them and worth investigating imo.

No problem, as these threads grow they branch off & have multiple discussions. I replied to your post because you tagged me in yours.
.
The takeaway, I think, is that there are many individual cases where installation, usage or economics vary & therefore where different solutions will be appropriate. There is no 1 correct solution for all.

Zandoni

a) I am convinced though & that I know about bus level control & you don't suggests that I know more than you.

Opentherm or similar (on Bosch Group products it is EMS which is proprietary).
https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/news/opentherm-explained

b) as I have stated I am not a fan of Hive (or Nest)

So you give it a different name and you wonder why I don't know what you are talking about.

I'm not convinced it will give much savings at all when you take into consideration the longer boiler run times.

Even if you're not a fan of Hive or Nest they are both excellent products and they work with most boilers.

To change a boiler to try and save on gas is a pointless exercise because the new boiler will be worn out by the time it's paid for itself.

BUFF

No, I did not give it a new name. It's well known (arguably the original term, predating Opentherm).

It essentially automates & thereby further optimises what I already do manually & which demonstrably lowers energy use - admittedly by a small amount (typically ~3-6% is the normal claim) & improving comfort & boiler/system life. 

They may work with most boilers but they don't necessarily optimise with most boilers & as I said they don't really give me anything that I want over what I already have. Also, there are plenty of reports of people with bad experiences of Hive and/or Nest. Hive is generally reckoned to be 1 of the poorer/least smart "smart" thermostats (e.g. it doesn't support Opentherm ).

Nowhere have I said that I plan on changing a boiler in order to save gas. I am planning on upgrading the controls when I next have to replace my boiler. I have already stated (2x) that I don't expect my next boiler to pay for itself (I do expect the next controls to pay for themselves over the next boiler's life though). 

Zandoni

BUFF said:

No, I did not give it a new name. It's well known (arguably the original term, predating Opentherm).

It essentially automates & thereby further optimises what I already do manually & which demonstrably lowers energy use - admittedly by a small amount (typically ~6% is the normal claim) & improving comfort & boiler/system life. 

They may work with most boilers but they don't necessarily optimise with most boilers & as I said they don't really give me anything that I want over what I already have. Also, there are plenty of reports of people with bad experiences of Hive and/or Nest. Hive is generally reckoned to be 1 of the poorer/least smart "smart" thermostats (e.g. it doesn't support Opentherm ).

Nowhere have I said that I plan on changing a boiler in order to save gas. I am planning on upgrading the controls when I next have to replace my boiler. I have already stated (2x) that I don't expect my next boiler to pay for itself (I do expect the next controls to pay for themselves over the next boiler's life though). 

It s well known as Opentherm you’re right.
The manufacturers claim a 6% saving which is probably exaggerated, I doubt you’d notice any comfort difference and I’m concerned that the boiler is running for longer so it will lessen its life not improve it.
I’m sorry you don’t like Hive, I recommend them to everybody, I love how well they work.
You did say this:

BUFF said:

but a new boiler + new controls all properly set up & used might (mine has over it's 13 year life so far & I reckon that the latest controls could probably eke out another 10% saving in gas usage) depending upon what was already fitted.

BUFF

It was well known as bus control before Opentherm came along as an independent rather than proprietary variant. The original Opentherm specification was sold to the association by Honeywell.
Vaillant have proprietary e-Bus, Viessmann have K-Bus, Bosch Group have EMS & there are even manufacturers that have taken advantage of flexibility in Opentherm specification to make it more difficult for Opentherm devices from 3rd-party suppliers to run with their Opentherm boilers.

The heating industry generally seems to  to line up behind the reasons why a boiler running lower for longer is better for boiler & system life but you are allowed to have your own opinion.
 
Yes, I did say that "a new boiler+new controls all properly set up & used might" (not will).
Also note. not "new boiler" but "new boiler+new controls". I also said "it depends where you are coming from to start".
My last  "new boiler+new controls" change demonstrably has paid for itself over it's 13 years (14 heating seasons) which I attribute roughly 50% to generational (non-condensing balanced flue> condensing fan-flued) boiler efficiency savings  & 50% to efficiencies gained from using improved controls. However, and for the 3rd time now, I am also saying that I don't expect the next boiler+controls change to achieve that - the easy gains have been made & there is very limited room for improvement over what I currently have.

Brewer21

We had a new boiler fitted 5 years ago, a condensing Worcester Bosch. It replaced s 24 year old Worcester combi boiler. Sited in exactly the place, virtually a straight swap. I've also had the radiators upgraded (newer) over the last 5 years too. Whilst I was expecting a small improvement in gas consumption (using less) it hasn't really happened, perhaps in a minor way. What we do have is a noteably warmer home for winter, hotter water when drawn off. 
The old boiler used to chug along making all kinds of noises and took an age to heat up the home and heat the water to something that passed as hot.

So looking at our usage over many years including with the old boiler, it's all logged down in a book (readings taken weekly and still do) we can't really say we saved on gas/electric over the years, marginally I'd say. We get more bang for our bucks though.
So really don't expect to save any fantastic amounts monetary wise when fitting a new boiler, it'll do the job better so to speak.

Zandoni

BUFF said:

It was well known as bus control before Opentherm came along as an independent rather than proprietary variant. The original Opentherm specification was sold to the association by Honeywell.
Vaillant have proprietary e-Bus, Viessmann have K-Bus, Bosch Group have EMS & there are even manufacturers that have taken advantage of flexibility in Opentherm specification to make it more difficult for Opentherm devices from 3rd-party suppliers to run with their Opentherm boilers.

The heating industry generally seems to  to line up behind the reasons why a boiler running lower for longer is better for boiler & system life but you are allowed to have your own opinion.
 
Yes, I did say that "a new boiler+new controls all properly set up & used might" (not will).
Also note. not "new boiler" but "new boiler+new controls". I also said "it depends where you are coming from to start".
My last  "new boiler+new controls" change demonstrably has paid for itself over it's 13 years (14 heating seasons) which I attribute roughly 50% to generational (non-condensing balanced flue> condensing fan-flued) boiler efficiency savings  & 50% to efficiencies gained from using improved controls. However, and for the 3rd time now, I am also saying that I don't expect the next boiler+controls change to achieve that - the easy gains have been made & there is very limited room for improvement over what I currently have.

I'll leave you with your opinion but mine hasn't changed, I still think you should only change your boiler when it dies.