Salsa class booked without permission - what are our rights?

Jumblebumble

Ergates said:

pinkshoes said:

I don't see how the OP is at fault:

• OP paid for a session.
• OP emailed asking for available dates to choose from
• The business booked the OP into a session without even asking if the OP was free.
• The OP emailed back when they saw the booking saying they were not available.

The OP wasn't to know it was a "no reply" email address, and if it didn't ping back with a "no reply" message then they would not know.

The business is entirely to blame and due to their bad attitude I can see why the OP wants a full refund.

I would write to the business detailing the above, and asking as previously requested for availability of sessions so you can book one. Say you look forward to hearing back from them. 

If you do NOT hear back from them, then I would send a Letter Before Action asking for a FULL refund within 14 days. If they don't pay, take them to court. 

What we don't know is how the OP's wife worded the enquiry - was the business to blame for misinterpreting the email, or was the email ambiguously worded.

We also don't know what the confirmation email looked like - how clear was it that it was from a do-no-reply address and was there any other contact information provided in the email.

Well if a business is stupid enough to use do not reply email addresses then common sense dictates that they should expect emails to get lost ( although in this case it seems like a good way of extracting money from the unwary)

Ergates

Jumblebumble said:

Ergates said:

pinkshoes said:

I don't see how the OP is at fault:

• OP paid for a session.
• OP emailed asking for available dates to choose from
• The business booked the OP into a session without even asking if the OP was free.
• The OP emailed back when they saw the booking saying they were not available.

The OP wasn't to know it was a "no reply" email address, and if it didn't ping back with a "no reply" message then they would not know.

The business is entirely to blame and due to their bad attitude I can see why the OP wants a full refund.

I would write to the business detailing the above, and asking as previously requested for availability of sessions so you can book one. Say you look forward to hearing back from them. 

If you do NOT hear back from them, then I would send a Letter Before Action asking for a FULL refund within 14 days. If they don't pay, take them to court. 

What we don't know is how the OP's wife worded the enquiry - was the business to blame for misinterpreting the email, or was the email ambiguously worded.

We also don't know what the confirmation email looked like - how clear was it that it was from a do-no-reply address and was there any other contact information provided in the email.

Well if a business is stupid enough to use do not reply email addresses then common sense dictates that they should expect emails to get lost ( although in this case it seems like a good way of extracting money from the unwary)

Many business use do not reply email addresses for automated messages.  There is nothing particularly "stupid" about it, most people get on fine with them.   There are very very few circumstances where they would help extract money from the unwary.

pinkshoes

Ergates said:

Many business use do not reply email addresses for automated messages.  There is nothing particularly "stupid" about it, most people get on fine with them.   There are very very few circumstances where they would help extract money from the unwary.

A "do not reply" email is fair enough, but when someone asks about availability for sessions on Saturdays, it is NOT a good business move to book someone into an appointment with such short notice then not give them the opportunity to accept/decline in the same form that they were informed.

If they emailed them the appointment then it is fair enough the OP should be able to reply to the email. The business should have followed it up with a phone call given the short notice when they had had no confirmation from the OP that they could attend. 

lisyloo

I think we are all agreed that the business made an error in making the booking.
They also can’t expect to get replies from an “no reply” address (which doesn’t mean they were completely uncontactable).
where we don’t agree is what the OP/wife should have done to mitigate losses knowing full well they weren’t going to turn up. In general there is a duty to mitigate losses but as always the devil is in the detail.

a sympathetic judge may agree 100% refund (but court costs aren’t awarded in small claims I don’t think).
a less sympathetic judge will say she should have done more to mitigate losses.

a solicitor might have a better view of the outcome from their experience.
if a free one is available they should be consulted as views here will vary.

Im biased because I would have followed up either by phone (and got it in writing) or with a read receipt to prove email delivery, or (in some cases) with a recorded delivery letter.
I would also have free legal cover as I consider that to be valuable (£15 per year).

Im a big fan of the boards but once you get different opinions then you sometimes need a professional.

Manxman_in_exile

Manxman_in_exile said:

AndrewDE said:

user1977 said:

AndrewDE said:

user1977 said:

AndrewDE said:

This is how the enquiry was worded, this is the email, sent on a Monday, that led them to book her in for the following Saturday:

Hi,

I haven’t had a response about booking this lesson.

Please can you let me know the Saturday availability.

Many thanks

And what was the previous communication from her?

Thank you,

I’ve just booked, please could I arrange the two hour lesson for a Saturday with (redacted)?

It's not clear that's merely enquiring about availability though, "please could I arrange" reads more as a request to make a booking.

So they just guessed which Saturday she was talking about? And what time?

This gets more confusing.  You just told us that your wife had emailed them saying "I've just booked... "

Why did she say I've just booked (which sort of implies she'd made a booking?) instead of something like: "I've just tried to book our Salsa session - which we've already paid for - through your website portal but it won't allow me to do so.  Can you let me know what times you have available on blah blah blah... ?"
...

Apologies for quoting my own post, but I'd still like to know from the OP why his wife emailed them saying "I've just booked... "

unholyangel

lisyloo said:

AndrewDE said:

lisyloo said:

How come the session was missed?
They made a booking and then you missed it without confirming cancellation? (Except to send an email to a no reply address).

you have the option of the small claims court but I personally would not expect 100% refund of the cancellation was not confirmed/agreed with anyone.

just my opinion

The session was missed because it was booked without her permission on a date that she was not available. She had only made a general enquiry as to the Saturday availability.

But she received an email so knew about the booking, but didn’t pick up the phone to correct it?
do they have a phone number? Did she try?
Im only asking the questions a judge would ask.
why didn’t she ensure she communicated that the booking was not acceptable?

firing off an email is not the same as ensuring the communication has been received which is important when costs are incurred.
the initial error is theirs, the subsequent one is hers (or that’s how it seems to me).

i don’t think it’s possible to know what a court would rule.
the 50% of costs seems a reasonable offer to me.
maybe the teacher is nicer than the person you’ve spoken to?

your choices are take the offer or take your chances in court knowing your wife didn’t make efforts to ensure they knew you were not available.

if there are other factors you haven’t mentioned (like she called 10 times and they didn’t answer the phone) then that might change things, but as it stands she made little effort to curtail their costs.

Hang on, isn't that exactly what the business did? Fired off an email and incurred costs without checking it had been received OR agreed? 

Btw do not reply emails are still received. Its just a way of saying "we don't monitor this mailbox". Kind of similar to being sent something in the post and just ignoring it. 

But I think everyone's getting sidetracked by it. No agreement = nothing to cancel. Business can assume confirmation all they like but unless they actually receive it, no part of the loss was caused by anything the wife did or didn't do.

lisyloo

Yes, absolutely, the initial mistake was by the business.
Im not getting sidetracked at all from where the bulk of the error lies I’m just warning there’s a risk it might not be 100% awarded - which I think is fair.

i disagree with your last statement that’s its cut & dried.
the loss was partially caused by the wife failing to mitigate the loss in both failing to both effectively communicate (in an acceptable form to the other party) and also confirm receipt of the communication.
not all appointments work as you describe.
sometimes you get given a date and it’s up to you to cancel - seeing an NHS consultant would be an example of that. The appointment is there until you cancel which you need to do in a form they tell you to do - for example if they give you a cancellation phone number then you need to ring that.
would you think it was ok for someone not to cancel an NHS appointment given and claim they never agreed so it was never made? Sorry doesn’t work like that.

i don’t think i’m getting side tracked to warn that it might be less than 100% and that’s something the OP needs to consider if going to court.
when anyone considers going to court they should, consider the chances of winning/losing and also the chances of enforcing the judgement if they win - always.

i think it’s fair to warn it’s not a caste iron case.

of course a sympathetic judge might not like the attitude of the business and aWard 100%.
its not possible to say as it depends what happens on the day.
personally I pay £15 for legal cover so I can talk to a professional anytime I like and I’d recommend this to others. In recent years I’ve taken this standalone just in case the issue is with home insurer (because you can’t sue them with their own policy).

otherwise sometimes you have to just bite the bullet and write that letter before action.

Jumblebumble

Ergates said:

Jumblebumble said:

Ergates said:

pinkshoes said:

I don't see how the OP is at fault:

• OP paid for a session.
• OP emailed asking for available dates to choose from
• The business booked the OP into a session without even asking if the OP was free.
• The OP emailed back when they saw the booking saying they were not available.

The OP wasn't to know it was a "no reply" email address, and if it didn't ping back with a "no reply" message then they would not know.

The business is entirely to blame and due to their bad attitude I can see why the OP wants a full refund.

I would write to the business detailing the above, and asking as previously requested for availability of sessions so you can book one. Say you look forward to hearing back from them. 

If you do NOT hear back from them, then I would send a Letter Before Action asking for a FULL refund within 14 days. If they don't pay, take them to court. 

What we don't know is how the OP's wife worded the enquiry - was the business to blame for misinterpreting the email, or was the email ambiguously worded.

We also don't know what the confirmation email looked like - how clear was it that it was from a do-no-reply address and was there any other contact information provided in the email.

Well if a business is stupid enough to use do not reply email addresses then common sense dictates that they should expect emails to get lost ( although in this case it seems like a good way of extracting money from the unwary)

Many business use do not reply email addresses for automated messages.  There is nothing particularly "stupid" about it, most people get on fine with them.   There are very very few circumstances where they would help extract money from the unwary.

I doubt the OP will take much comfort in this fact as this is clearly a circumstance where it has helped the business extract money.

Ergates

Jumblebumble said:

Ergates said:

Jumblebumble said:

Ergates said:

pinkshoes said:

I don't see how the OP is at fault:

• OP paid for a session.
• OP emailed asking for available dates to choose from
• The business booked the OP into a session without even asking if the OP was free.
• The OP emailed back when they saw the booking saying they were not available.

The OP wasn't to know it was a "no reply" email address, and if it didn't ping back with a "no reply" message then they would not know.

The business is entirely to blame and due to their bad attitude I can see why the OP wants a full refund.

I would write to the business detailing the above, and asking as previously requested for availability of sessions so you can book one. Say you look forward to hearing back from them. 

If you do NOT hear back from them, then I would send a Letter Before Action asking for a FULL refund within 14 days. If they don't pay, take them to court. 

What we don't know is how the OP's wife worded the enquiry - was the business to blame for misinterpreting the email, or was the email ambiguously worded.

We also don't know what the confirmation email looked like - how clear was it that it was from a do-no-reply address and was there any other contact information provided in the email.

Well if a business is stupid enough to use do not reply email addresses then common sense dictates that they should expect emails to get lost ( although in this case it seems like a good way of extracting money from the unwary)

Many business use do not reply email addresses for automated messages.  There is nothing particularly "stupid" about it, most people get on fine with them.   There are very very few circumstances where they would help extract money from the unwary.

I doubt the OP will take much comfort in this fact as this is clearly a circumstance where it has helped the business extract money.

It didn't help the business dishonestly extract money, which is what the term "extract money" implies - otherwise it just means "helps the business function".   They were just trying to set up the salsa lesson they thought the OP wanted.  Clearly they've made a mistake but there is nothing to suggest they acted dishonestly.

Ergo I argue that to use the term "extract money" is not appropriate here.

Manxman_in_exile

AndrewDE said:

user1977 said:

AndrewDE said:

This is how the enquiry was worded, this is the email, sent on a Monday, that led them to book her in for the following Saturday:

Hi,

I haven’t had a response about booking this lesson.

Please can you let me know the Saturday availability.

Many thanks

And what was the previous communication from her?

Thank you,

I’ve just booked, please could I arrange the two hour lesson for a Saturday with (redacted)?

Many thanks



(I think the online portal wasn't allowing her to select a time or day so she booked without one then emailed to arrange the specifics)

I'd still like to know why the OP emailed the Salsa saying "I've just booked" - which sort of implies they'd actually booked a session...