Please help! Joint and Several Release issues

Talyl

I'm hoping  ssomeone can please help as I'm at my wits end.

I gave 5 weeks notice of my intention to leave a property where I'm part of a joint and several contract (though on the contract itself it says 'joint and independent') and a few days after my request for a reference the landlord decided he's thinking of selling.

This apparently means they won't release my reference for the new property and if the landlord does decide to sell he can refuse to release me from the contract until all tenants have vacated. I didn't know this was legal and am struggling to access free legal advice. Our contract does not appear to be a standard AST and doesn't have any clear specifics about termination from US vs termination from the landlord.

We have also been waiting two weeks in limbo to hear whether or not he's made his mind up and the agency has been extremely unhelpful, despite my request for a decision without undue delay. (We were notified today the landlord has just applied for an HMO licence and has had an estate agent look at the place.)

We have a new tenant lined up waiting to be confirmed and I can't afford to be paying for a property I've left (I was lucky and my partner has managed to secure our new property without me and my reference but we would have lost both the house and potentially my new job due to this delay if we hadn't managed that.)

If anyone can please help and advise me on possible next steps or are ok for me to get in contact with more specific details I'd be extremely grateful.

Thank you in advance.

canaldumidi

You need to clarify your current position if you want advice:

* which country are you in?

* do you rent an entire property, or room(s) within a property?

* does the landlord also live there?

* who is named on your tenancy agreement as 'The tenant'? Just you? You and someone else? Who?

* are you in a fixed term? What exact date did the tenancy start? What is the 'Term' (eg 1 year) or what is the exact 'end date' on the tenancy agreement?

* if you are not in a fixed term, did you ever have one which has now ended? On what exact date did it end?

* why do you say "does not appear to be a standard AST"?

* On what exact date did you serve you notice? On what exact date did you say your notice would expire?

* " termination from US vs termination from the landlord." No idea what you mean. Please explain. Who or what is 'US' and why do you think you can 'terminate from US'?

* if this is an HMO, should it be licenced? IS it licenced? Have you checked?

* a reference from the LL is in no way related to whether he plans to sell- however a LL cannot be forced to provide a reference if he chooses not to

* whether the LL decides to'release you' from the tenancy depends on a) whether you've served proper notice in which case it's not up to him or b) whether you and he reach an agreement

* having 'a new tenant lined up' may help by giving the LL the option to give that person a tenancy, but it is up to the LL whether a) he wants a new tenant or wants to sell and b) whether that person is acceptabe to the LL

This post may help:

Post 4: Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

You may also wish to check/confirm, when you moved in, did you receive

* an EPC?

* the gov leaflet 'how to rent'?

* a gas report (if there is gas in the property)?

* the 'Prescribed Information' if you paid a deposit, and whether the deposit was protected?

Post 3: Deposits: Payment, Protection and Return.

Talyl

Thank you for your queries. I've answered them as best I can below. Thank you also for the links. I'll look into them.

canaldumidi said:

You need to clarify your current position if you want advice:

* which country are you in? England

* do you rent an entire property, or room(s) within a property? A room in a property with 3 others who also rent a room.

* does the landlord also live there? No

* who is named on your tenancy agreement as 'The tenant'? Just you? You and someone else? Who? All four of us on a joint and several agreement where we're collectively responsible for the rent..

* are you in a fixed term? What exact date did the tenancy start? What is the 'Term' (eg 1 year) or what is the exact 'end date' on the tenancy agreement? It says a fixed period of 6 months commencing oct 2019. There's no mention of an end date but has been monthly rolling since then.

* if you are not in a fixed term, did you ever have one which has now ended? On what exact date did it end? It's never ended.

* why do you say "does not appear to be a standard AST"? I would need to send it to you for you to see what I mean but there's no clear section about the tenants ending the agreement, what's required or the notice period. My partner has told me it's not a normal AST it appears to be something they've come up with themselves.

* On what exact date did you serve you notice? On what exact date did you say your notice would expire? 5 weeks notice was given (3 weeks ago). The agreement makes no mention of how much notice is required but all previous tenants have given 4 weeks. Very keen to discuss specific dates and details privately if that's possible please.

* " termination from US vs termination from the landlord." No idea what you mean. Please explain. Who or what is 'US' and why do you think you can 'terminate from US'? See answer above relating to not a standard AST

* if this is an HMO, should it be licenced? IS it licenced? Have you checked? I don't understand. They have only just applied for an HMO. That's a new thing.

* a reference from the LL is in no way related to whether he plans to sell- however a LL cannot be forced to provide a reference if he chooses not to. I was advised by the letting agents that they have the reference ready they just won't send it because the landlord has asked all paperwork to be stopped while he decides whether or not he's selling. So far it's been two weeks and he still hasn't decided.

* whether the LL decides to'release you' from the tenancy depends on a) whether you've served proper notice in which case it's not up to him or b) whether you and he reach an agreement. I have given more than four weeks notice. I have no contact with him directly and don't even know his name. This is all happening via an agency who keep saying we have to wait for his decision.

* having 'a new tenant lined up' may help by giving the LL the option to give that person a tenancy, but it is up to the LL whether a) he wants a new tenant or wants to sell and b) whether that person is acceptabe to the LL - Totally understandable but I don't understand how he can keep me tied in to the contract after I've served the appropriate notice.

Did you receieve:

* an EPC? - If that means Energy Performance Certificate I don't believe so.

* a gas report (if there is gas in the property)? There is gas at the property. I'm not aware of a report.

* the 'Prescribed Information' if you paid a deposit, and whether the deposit was protected? The agency stated that the incoming tenant must pay the deposit to the outgoing tenant (bearing in mind only one person out of the four gets replaced at a time so it's only their portion of the overall houses deposit). This means there is no receipt. The original deposit is kept in the usual deposit scheme.

I appreciate your help. I hope my answers above are helpful. I don't know if there's some way for us to get in contact via PM or something please?

Slithery

Talyl said:
I don't know if there's some way for us to get in contact via PM or something please?

Why would you want to do that and limit the answers to one poster (although they would be the person I'd choose if I had to)?
By keeping the conversation public on the forum you'll get advice from more people.

Talyl

Slithery said:

Talyl said:
I don't know if there's some way for us to get in contact via PM or something please?

Why would you want to do that and limit the answers to one poster (although they would be the person I'd choose if I had to)?
By keeping the conversation public on the forum you'll get advice from more people.

Because I don't want to put personally identifying information on a public forum and would appreciate speaking to someone I can send the contract to and have a direct discussion with. I tried that with a free legal advice clinic but after an initial call have been unable to make further contact.

In regards to getting advice from more people, I hope the answers I've given above have enough info for that.

Talyl

Unfortunately the guy I spoke to on the phone was unsure what could be done and unfamiliar with this type of situation.

Slithery

Talyl said:

Because I don't want to put personally identifying information on a public forum

You can just redact any personal information and post it here. You'll get better advice that way. It also means that other people in a similar situation will benefit.

canaldumidi

Thanks for your answers, however you have failed to provide the exact dates I asked for. I now have additional questions underlined in bold:

* are you in a fixed term? What exact date did the tenancy start? What is the 'Term' (eg 1 year) or what is the exact 'end date' on the tenancy agreement? It says a fixed period of 6 months commencing oct 2019. There's no mention of an end date but has been monthly rolling since then.

* if you are not in a fixed term, did you ever have one which has now ended? On what exact date did it end? It's never ended.

So clearly you DID have a fixed term (6 months) which HAS now ended (since 6 months has passed). What EXACT DATES was the fixed term?

* why do you say "does not appear to be a standard AST"? I would need to send it to you for you to see what I mean but.....There is no such thing as a 'standard' AST. Any landlord can use any agreement he wants: he can purchase one of the many different commercially available, he can write it himself, or, indeed he can rely on a verbal AST saying no more than "You can live at this property in return for £X per month."

* On what exact date did you serve you notice? On what exact date did you say your notice would expire? 5 weeks notice was given (3 weeks ago).Those are not EXACT dates.Please provide exact dates for both service and expiry of your notice.

Whether your notice is valid will depend on the exact dates requested for the fixed term, and the notice.

all previous tenants have given 4 weeks. legally irrelevant.

* " termination from US vs termination from the landlord." No idea what you mean. Please explain. Who or what is 'US' and why do you think you can 'terminate from US'? See answer above relating to not a standard AST

I still have no idea what you mean, however, please be aware that since all  4 of you are on a single tenancy agreement, any valid notice you serve will apply to the entire tenancy, not just to you, so all 4 of you must leave when the notice expires.

If one or more of you remain the landlord can charge you all double rent for failing to vacate the property when the notice expres.

* a reference from the LL is in no way related to whether he plans to sell- however a LL cannot be forced to provide a reference if he chooses not to. I was advised by the letting agents that they have the reference ready they just won't send it because the landlord has asked all paperwork to be stopped while he decides whether or not he's selling. So far it's been two weeks and he still hasn't decided.

Seems strange, however the LL is under no obligation to provide a reference.

* whether the LL decides to'release you' from the tenancy depends on a) whether you've served proper notice in which case it's not up to him or b) whether you and he reach an agreement. I have given more than four weeks notice. I have no contact with him directly and don't even know his name. This is all happening via an agency who keep saying we have to wait for his decision.

If your notice is valid (not yet clear) then it is not up to the LL to 'release' you. Your tenancy will end and all 4 of you must leave or pay double rent.

What is the name on your tenancy agreement for 'The landlord' (usually near the top of page 1). That is your landlord. If no name is provided, you can write to the agent and ask for his name and address. By law they must provide it (Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 S1)

* having 'a new tenant lined up' may help by giving the LL the option to give that person a tenancy, but it is up to the LL whether a) he wants a new tenant or wants to sell and b) whether that person is acceptabe to the LL - Totally understandable but I don't understand how he can keep me tied in to the contract after I've served the appropriate notice.

Assuming you have served proper notice (not yet clear) you are not 'tied in'. Your tenancy will end when your notice expires and all 4 of you must leave.

It is then up to the LL to find a new tenant or joint tenants, or to sell if that's what he decides to do.

* the 'Prescribed Information' if you paid a deposit, and whether the deposit was protected? The agency stated that the incoming tenant must pay the deposit to the outgoing tenant (bearing in mind only one person out of the four gets replaced at a time so it's only their portion of the overall houses deposit). This means there is no receipt. The original deposit is kept in the usual deposit scheme.

When you moved in, did you pay a deposit? Who did you pay it to? If you paid it to the landlord (or his agent) then by law they had to protect it in a deposit scheme and tell you which scheme. Did that happen?

If you paid your deposit to a bloke you just met (eg an outgoing tenant), then you will have to get your deposit back from that bloke - if you can find him!

Please note that what I'm giving you is English tenancy law. The rights and obligations you have.

In some circumstances arrangements are made by agreement that are different. Your description of the deposit being passed from one incoming joint tenant to an outgoing joint tenant is not advisable, but does happen. It can work well. But where problems or disputes arise, then everyone has to fall back on 'the law', and any informal arrangements suddenly become a problem!

(note to others - the old website allowed text to be written in multiple colours which was great for responding and re-responding. Having used bold, and underlined, what now?)

Slithery

canaldumidi said:

note to others - the old website allowed text to be written in multiple colours which was great for responding and re-responding. Having used bold, and underlined, what now?

Emojis?
Only kidding but the only thing I can think of is bigger text? Or maybe short lines that are right-justified?
I usually split the quoted text into multiple sections with my replies inbetween but that's also been an absolute pain since the forum update.

Ratkin007

I can't advise re tenancy termination, however 4 people in separate households is a HMO. 
May be worth checking on the local authority website to see if there is an additional licensing scheme in place. Is there is, then check if the property falls within the area and when the scheme started.
If the property should have been licensed but was not, you may be able to apply for a rent repayment order.

canaldumidi

OP said the LL has just applied for an HMO licence. Seems strange if he's thinking of selling unless of course he's been caught by the HMO police! In which case, yes, rent repayment order is possible.