Enterprise are trying to take all our savings

Manxman_in_exile

DB1904 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

user1977 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

DB1904 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

TELLIT01 said:

k18dan said:

Who knows what they would have done in that situation, but it sounds like you did what felt right to you at the time.

That's probably the fairest comment I have seen in the entire thread.  Very easy to know exactly what somebody else should have done when you aren't in the likely state of shock that the driver would have been in.

Well I know what I'd do.  In the only road traffic accident I've been involved in the first thing I did - after checking I was ok and the other driver was ok - was contact the police.  I didn't do so because another car was involved, I did so because the road needed to be cleared and because it seemed the sensible thing to do anyway.

I must admit I'm not clear what the effects of the recent Highway Code changes are, but I thought the very clear advice in there was that if you suffer a breakdown on the motorway and end up on the hard shoulder (which seems to be what the OP says happened to them) then your first action after safely exiting the car, if you aren't right next to an emergency 'phone, is to call 999 and ask for the police, or have I got that wrong?

If that's the advice for breakdowns on the motorway in the UK, I'm pretty sure I'd expect something similar on the Autobahn.  

And if I were driving a hire car in Germany - or any other foreign country - I'd make damn' sure I understood fully the terms of my insurance.  I note the OP still hasn't come back to confirm whether or not the term Enterprise is relying on is in the insurance they signed up to.

Is that the advice? If so it's not good advice calling an emergency service for them to pass on your details to send Highways England.

I thought it was - but I'm happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood it.  (I've just looked it up after reading your post and I must admit I don't find the web version as user friendly or as clear as the old paper booklet).

"...if you are unable to exit your vehicle or if you have not stopped near a free emergency telephone, call 999 immediately and ask for the police. Alternatively, press your SOS button if your vehicle has one and ask for the police"

If I've understood it correctly, it appears to be part of Rule 277

Breakdowns and incidents (275 to 287) - The Highway Code - Guidance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

So if I suffered a blown tyre on the motorway and ended up on the hard shoulder  - but not close to an emergency 'phone - I would interpret that advice to be to dial 999 and ask for the police.

If the advice is not to contact the police, then I think that that could be made clearer.  But it seems common sense to me anyway.

It's a big ambiguous - initially it says it's what you should do if you can't get your vehicle to a place of relative safety and exit the vehicle i.e. you've stopped in a live lane or for some reason can't get out and stand on the verge. But later suggests you should phone 999 if you're not "near" an emergency phone - given how close together the phones generally are, I'm not sure when that would apply (unless the phones are out of order of course which does sometimes happen). Not sure the police would be impressed if you simply couldn't be ar5ed walking to the phone.

I'm more than happy to be shown I'm wrong, but I've just read it again and I don't think it actually is ambiguous at all - although I agree it may not say what it was intended to say!

"Rule 277

If your vehicle develops a problem, leave the carriageway at the next exit or pull into a service area if possible (see Rule 275 for places of relative safety). If you cannot, you should   [my bold]

Go left

• move into the left lane
• pull into an emergency area or onto a hard shoulder if you can... "    [ my bold again]

There follow two sub-headings similar to Go left  -  and they are Get Safe and Get help.  The bit about contacting the police is under the latter sub-heading.

My understanding of that is that if (1) you can't either leave at the next exit or pull into a service area, then (2)you follow the advice given in the following three sub-headings, (3) part of which is to pull onto the hard shoulder if you can, and (4) another part of that advice is to contact the police if you aren't close to an emergency 'phone.

But I'm not particularly bothered about the nuances of the UK Highway Code or how far apart emergency phones are or the likely reaction of the police if you called them.

What I'm more concerned about is that drivers perhaps ought to be aware that if they breakdown and end up on the hard shoulder of the motorway (or Autobahn), then they should consider alerting the police or emergency services in the first instance rather than ringing up their hire company first.

If I was driving an Enterprise hire car on the M1 and ended up on the hard shoulder after a blowout, calling Enterprise wouldn't be my first and only thought...  

Out of interest if you ended up on the hard shoulder which was not being used as Lane 1, exited the vehicle and were stood the other side of a crash barrier. Why would you think it is a matter for the police?

Because I would consider it prudent to alert the police to my stationary car's presence on the hard shoulder as I would consider it to be in a potentially hazardous position.  Somebody else could drive into the back of it and suffer serious injury.  (And if that couldn't happen then I don't understand why drivers who have broken down and are stuck on the hard shoulder are advised not to remain in their vehicles.  I've always understood that advice to apply to all hard shoulders and not just those being used as a live lane).

Or maybe an accident will happen up ahead causing a tailback in all three lanes requiring emergency vehicles to use the hard shoulder and that might cause difficulty if my broken down car is blocking it and surrounded by a traffic log-jam.  Isn't one of the purposes of the hard shoulder to enable emergency access?  I'm sure it'll be also be covered by CCTV but who's to say there won't be a glitch in the system and just might be overlooked?  Is it so bad to act proactively in alerting police to the car's presence?

And as you already seem to have agreed, that's what Rule 277 appears to be suggesting I do anyway.  Maybe it's badly written - we can perhaps agree that it is.

In any case, I'd prefer to take the precautionary approach.  If the police consider it's not a matter for them, I think they're in a better position to make that decision than I am.  I f they want to do nothing fine - I'll be happy to know I'd done all I could do and didn't leave anything undone...

theonlywayisup

Just turning your discussion to a different angle.  If I see a breakdown on a motorway or a major road (we don't have motorways in Cornwall) then I call 999.  I have lost count of the number of police cars that sit behind broken down vehicles on the A30 down here in the summertime, when they have far more pressing things to do.  

Incidentally my son - a policeman in the South East regards his early turns as breakdown cover - in his words the most boring of shifts.  But I did ask him and his advice is to call the police as it's a matter of safety.  A vehicle on the hard shoulder can be the cause of some horrendous collision.   

We don't have coverage like the rest of the UK with the Traffic Patrols (or whatever they are called) but occasionally when they seem to venture over the Devon border they seem to drive back East quicker than they arrived. 

Ergates

theonlywayisup said:

Just turning your discussion to a different angle.  If I see a breakdown on a motorway or a major road (we don't have motorways in Cornwall) then I call 999.  I have lost count of the number of police cars that sit behind broken down vehicles on the A30 down here in the summertime, when they have far more pressing things to do. 

I would argue that protecting people from potentially fatal car accidents is probably quite an important thing for them to be doing.

theonlywayisup

Ergates said:

theonlywayisup said:

Just turning your discussion to a different angle.  If I see a breakdown on a motorway or a major road (we don't have motorways in Cornwall) then I call 999.  I have lost count of the number of police cars that sit behind broken down vehicles on the A30 down here in the summertime, when they have far more pressing things to do. 

I would argue that protecting people from potentially fatal car accidents is probably quite an important thing for them to be doing.

I completely agree, but they are stretched very thin here due to the nature of the geography of the two counties  - but my point was that calling 999 is my first instinct when it isn't me that has broken down, so I have no reason to think it would be any different if it were me. 

born_again

mobileron said:

Ensure u cancel or lose the credit card,if it was booked in Germany.

Which would be totally pointless Enterprise have authorisation to take funds if required.
Any amount would simply be passed to new card if stopped. If account closed it would just reopen it.

It amazing how many people give that advice. Sadly the people that do it soon find out the reality that it does not work.

jon81uk

Manxman_in_exile said:

If I was driving an Enterprise hire car on the M1 and ended up on the hard shoulder after a blowout, calling Enterprise wouldn't be my first and only thought...  

Whereas if I was in a safe location (not a live lane) and there was no other vehicle involved calling breakdown services (AA, RAC etc) would be my first and only though. 
Unless there was signage (as there is at some smart motorway refuge areas) stating you must use the phone before rejoining traffic, I would think that once my vehicle is either roadworthy or on a tow truck the matter is dealt with.

Manxman_in_exile

theonlywayisup said:

Ergates said:

theonlywayisup said:

Just turning your discussion to a different angle.  If I see a breakdown on a motorway or a major road (we don't have motorways in Cornwall) then I call 999.  I have lost count of the number of police cars that sit behind broken down vehicles on the A30 down here in the summertime, when they have far more pressing things to do. 

I would argue that protecting people from potentially fatal car accidents is probably quite an important thing for them to be doing.

I completely agree, but they are stretched very thin here due to the nature of the geography of the two counties  - but my point was that calling 999 is my first instinct when it isn't me that has broken down, so I have no reason to think it would be any different if it were me. 

Quite.  Although I think I was one of the first people to respond to this thread yesterday, I've only contributed today because a couple of posters had said something like "Well who knows how any of us would respond in this situation?".  And my answer to that is "I know what I'd do.  I'd call the police"!

theonlywayisup said:

Just turning your discussion to a different angle.  If I see a breakdown on a motorway or a major road (we don't have motorways in Cornwall) then I call 999.  I have lost count of the number of police cars that sit behind broken down vehicles on the A30 down here in the summertime, when they have far more pressing things to do...

Yes.  I need to travel nearly 100 miles before I get to a motorway and haven't driven on one since November 2019.  But the fact we don't have motorways here doesn't mean that our A roads are not extremely dangerous with high accident rates.  Half the police cars I see are attending accidents and the other half are attending breakdowns trying to avoid accidents.

theonlywayisup said:

...Incidentally my son - a policeman in the South East regards his early turns as breakdown cover - in his words the most boring of shifts.  But I did ask him and his advice is to call the police as it's a matter of safety.  A vehicle on the hard shoulder can be the cause of some horrendous collision...

My brother in law is a retired police officer and he used to do traffic duty up and down the M1 where it ran through his constabulary's area.  My wife tells me that he told her this 20+ years ago regarding breakdowns on the motorway:  "Don't mess about - get out and call the police".  Whether that advice would be different now, I don't know - there seem to be fewer and fewer police doing less and less so maybe it is different.

Still - I'd rather be safe than sorry and I'd rather be asked "Why are you contacting us?  It's not a police matter!"  than be told "You made a serious error of judgment not contacting the police.  What were you thinking of?"

theonlywayisup

Manxman_in_exile said:

theonlywayisup said:

Ergates said:

theonlywayisup said:

Just turning your discussion to a different angle.  If I see a breakdown on a motorway or a major road (we don't have motorways in Cornwall) then I call 999.  I have lost count of the number of police cars that sit behind broken down vehicles on the A30 down here in the summertime, when they have far more pressing things to do. 

I would argue that protecting people from potentially fatal car accidents is probably quite an important thing for them to be doing.

I completely agree, but they are stretched very thin here due to the nature of the geography of the two counties  - but my point was that calling 999 is my first instinct when it isn't me that has broken down, so I have no reason to think it would be any different if it were me. 

Still - I'd rather be safe than sorry and I'd rather be asked "Why are you contacting us?  It's not a police matter!"  than be told "You made a serious error of judgment not contacting the police.  What were you thinking of?"

Indeed.  And if I had road surfed the central reservation  on any road I would have called 999.

Manxman_in_exile

jon81uk said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

If I was driving an Enterprise hire car on the M1 and ended up on the hard shoulder after a blowout, calling Enterprise wouldn't be my first and only thought...  

Whereas if I was in a safe location (not a live lane) and there was no other vehicle involved calling breakdown services (AA, RAC etc) would be my first and only though. 
Unless there was signage (as there is at some smart motorway refuge areas) stating you must use the phone before rejoining traffic, I would think that once my vehicle is either roadworthy or on a tow truck the matter is dealt with.

And that's fair enough.  If you are broken down on the hard shoulder and - for whatever reason - aren't able to use an emergency 'phone, I'm not saying you have to do what I'd do.  But if I were in that situation I'd call the police because (a) I think that's what the HC says and (b) for the reaons I gave in my post at 12:17pm.  It just seems like the common sense and prudent thing to do in my view.

My real point regarding the OP's situation is that if you decide not to do something because you think it isn't necessary - or even if it's because it never even crossed your mind to do it - then it just might come back to bite you.  Of course, if you're the OP and you've understood your insurance policy inside out and complied with it - you'll be ok ...

DB1904

Manxman_in_exile said:

DB1904 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

user1977 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

DB1904 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

TELLIT01 said:

k18dan said:

Who knows what they would have done in that situation, but it sounds like you did what felt right to you at the time.

That's probably the fairest comment I have seen in the entire thread.  Very easy to know exactly what somebody else should have done when you aren't in the likely state of shock that the driver would have been in.

Well I know what I'd do.  In the only road traffic accident I've been involved in the first thing I did - after checking I was ok and the other driver was ok - was contact the police.  I didn't do so because another car was involved, I did so because the road needed to be cleared and because it seemed the sensible thing to do anyway.

I must admit I'm not clear what the effects of the recent Highway Code changes are, but I thought the very clear advice in there was that if you suffer a breakdown on the motorway and end up on the hard shoulder (which seems to be what the OP says happened to them) then your first action after safely exiting the car, if you aren't right next to an emergency 'phone, is to call 999 and ask for the police, or have I got that wrong?

If that's the advice for breakdowns on the motorway in the UK, I'm pretty sure I'd expect something similar on the Autobahn.  

And if I were driving a hire car in Germany - or any other foreign country - I'd make damn' sure I understood fully the terms of my insurance.  I note the OP still hasn't come back to confirm whether or not the term Enterprise is relying on is in the insurance they signed up to.

Is that the advice? If so it's not good advice calling an emergency service for them to pass on your details to send Highways England.

I thought it was - but I'm happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood it.  (I've just looked it up after reading your post and I must admit I don't find the web version as user friendly or as clear as the old paper booklet).

"...if you are unable to exit your vehicle or if you have not stopped near a free emergency telephone, call 999 immediately and ask for the police. Alternatively, press your SOS button if your vehicle has one and ask for the police"

If I've understood it correctly, it appears to be part of Rule 277

Breakdowns and incidents (275 to 287) - The Highway Code - Guidance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

So if I suffered a blown tyre on the motorway and ended up on the hard shoulder  - but not close to an emergency 'phone - I would interpret that advice to be to dial 999 and ask for the police.

If the advice is not to contact the police, then I think that that could be made clearer.  But it seems common sense to me anyway.

It's a big ambiguous - initially it says it's what you should do if you can't get your vehicle to a place of relative safety and exit the vehicle i.e. you've stopped in a live lane or for some reason can't get out and stand on the verge. But later suggests you should phone 999 if you're not "near" an emergency phone - given how close together the phones generally are, I'm not sure when that would apply (unless the phones are out of order of course which does sometimes happen). Not sure the police would be impressed if you simply couldn't be ar5ed walking to the phone.

I'm more than happy to be shown I'm wrong, but I've just read it again and I don't think it actually is ambiguous at all - although I agree it may not say what it was intended to say!

"Rule 277

If your vehicle develops a problem, leave the carriageway at the next exit or pull into a service area if possible (see Rule 275 for places of relative safety). If you cannot, you should   [my bold]

Go left

• move into the left lane
• pull into an emergency area or onto a hard shoulder if you can... "    [ my bold again]

There follow two sub-headings similar to Go left  -  and they are Get Safe and Get help.  The bit about contacting the police is under the latter sub-heading.

My understanding of that is that if (1) you can't either leave at the next exit or pull into a service area, then (2)you follow the advice given in the following three sub-headings, (3) part of which is to pull onto the hard shoulder if you can, and (4) another part of that advice is to contact the police if you aren't close to an emergency 'phone.

But I'm not particularly bothered about the nuances of the UK Highway Code or how far apart emergency phones are or the likely reaction of the police if you called them.

What I'm more concerned about is that drivers perhaps ought to be aware that if they breakdown and end up on the hard shoulder of the motorway (or Autobahn), then they should consider alerting the police or emergency services in the first instance rather than ringing up their hire company first.

If I was driving an Enterprise hire car on the M1 and ended up on the hard shoulder after a blowout, calling Enterprise wouldn't be my first and only thought...  

Out of interest if you ended up on the hard shoulder which was not being used as Lane 1, exited the vehicle and were stood the other side of a crash barrier. Why would you think it is a matter for the police?

Because I would consider it prudent to alert the police to my stationary car's presence on the hard shoulder as I would consider it to be in a potentially hazardous position.  Somebody else could drive into the back of it and suffer serious injury.  (And if that couldn't happen then I don't understand why drivers who have broken down and are stuck on the hard shoulder are advised not to remain in their vehicles.  I've always understood that advice to apply to all hard shoulders and not just those being used as a live lane).

Or maybe an accident will happen up ahead causing a tailback in all three lanes requiring emergency vehicles to use the hard shoulder and that might cause difficulty if my broken down car is blocking it and surrounded by a traffic log-jam.  Isn't one of the purposes of the hard shoulder to enable emergency access?  I'm sure it'll be also be covered by CCTV but who's to say there won't be a glitch in the system and just might be overlooked?  Is it so bad to act proactively in alerting police to the car's presence?

And as you already seem to have agreed, that's what Rule 277 appears to be suggesting I do anyway.  Maybe it's badly written - we can perhaps agree that it is.

In any case, I'd prefer to take the precautionary approach.  If the police consider it's not a matter for them, I think they're in a better position to make that decision than I am.  I f they want to do nothing fine - I'll be happy to know I'd done all I could do and didn't leave anything undone...

The facts are it's no longer a matter for the police and was passed to the Highways Agency, now Highways England a number of years ago.