Property Auction - sold in one auction appears again in another auction within one month

eddddy

Countrysider said:

That may have been the case in times gone by, but i suspect moving this practice to an online environment has had some challenges. 

It's still the case with online auctions. If you look at the results, you can see which properties are still available:  https://www.mchughandco.com/Auctions/LotList.aspx?aid=1156


It wouldn't be sensible for an auctioneer to pretend a property is sold when it's not.

If, for example, the reserve was £425k and the bidding only reached £404k, the auctioneer would want to get on the phone to the seller and bidder - and try to negotiate a deal.

But, if they can't get a deal, they'd advertise it in the results as 'Available at £425k'. 

Countrysider

eddddy said:

Countrysider said:

That may have been the case in times gone by, but i suspect moving this practice to an online environment has had some challenges. 

It's still the case with online auctions. If you look at the results, you can see which properties are still available:  https://www.mchughandco.com/Auctions/LotList.aspx?aid=1156


It wouldn't be sensible for an auctioneer to pretend a property is sold when it's not.

If, for example, the reserve was £425k and the bidding only reached £404k, the auctioneer would want to get on the phone to the seller and bidder - and try to negotiate a deal.

But, if they can't get a deal, they'd advertise it in the results as 'Available at £425k'. 

I'm not saying that it happens all of the time, but i do suspect that it happens some of the time. 

eddddy

Countrysider said:

eddddy said:

Countrysider said:

That may have been the case in times gone by, but i suspect moving this practice to an online environment has had some challenges. 

It's still the case with online auctions. If you look at the results, you can see which properties are still available:  https://www.mchughandco.com/Auctions/LotList.aspx?aid=1156


It wouldn't be sensible for an auctioneer to pretend a property is sold when it's not.

If, for example, the reserve was £425k and the bidding only reached £404k, the auctioneer would want to get on the phone to the seller and bidder - and try to negotiate a deal.

But, if they can't get a deal, they'd advertise it in the results as 'Available at £425k'. 

I'm not saying that it happens all of the time, but i do suspect that it happens some of the time. 

Ok - so your theory is essentially that the auctioneer has made a mistake.

They've mistakenly listed it as 'sold' when it didn't sell - and nobody has noticed.

Fair enough.



(You mention in an earlier post that you've seen this happen a lot. So I guess your theory is that auctioneers often make mistakes and list properties as 'sold' when they haven't sold.)

Countrysider

eddddy said:

Ok - so your theory is essentially that the auctioneer has made a mistake.

They've mistakenly listed it as 'sold' when it didn't sell - and nobody has noticed.

Fair enough.


(You mention in an earlier post that you've seen this happen a lot. So I guess your theory is that auctioneers often make mistakes and list properties as 'sold' when they haven't sold.)

I don't think it's a mistake. I think it's a shill bidding strategy, and the plan failed because the shill won the auction where the reserve was too low or not set at all. 

This is far easier to do online than in a physical auction. You don't even need a wall to bid off!

eddddy

Countrysider said:

I don't think it's a mistake. I think it's a shill bidding strategy, and the plan failed because the shill won the auction where the reserve was too low or not set at all. 

This is far easier to do online than in a physical auction. You don't even need a wall to bid off!

OK - so now you're theory is that the auctioneers were breaking the law.

They took shill bids off the wall, and to hide their law-breaking, they've listed the property as sold.


I wonder how they explained that to the seller?... "Unfortunately we broke the law and made-up shill bids. So we have to list your property as sold, even though it's not sold. Please don't tell the authorities".

Or maybe it was a conspiracy between the auctioneer and seller... and they conspired together to break the law!!!!

Countrysider

eddddy said:

Countrysider said:

I don't think it's a mistake. I think it's a shill bidding strategy, and the plan failed because the shill won the auction where the reserve was too low or not set at all. 

This is far easier to do online than in a physical auction. You don't even need a wall to bid off!

OK - so now you're theory is that the auctioneers were breaking the law.

They took shill bids off the wall, and to hide their law-breaking, they've listed the property as sold.


I wonder how they explained that to the seller?... "Unfortunately we broke the law and made-up shill bids. So we have to list your property as sold, even though it's not sold. Please don't tell the authorities".

Or maybe it was a conspiracy between the auctioneer and seller... and they conspired together to break the law!!!!

Shill bidding isn't against the law. Most auction terms and conditions i've seen refer to shill bidding in a more nuanced way. 

Something like this:

We reserve the right to bid on behalf of the owner up to an agreed amount. 

That's shill bidding in all but name. 

How to they explain it to the owner? 

Simple:

Our aim is to get the best price for your property, and we will may bid up the price to achieve that result. 

Again, it's not illegal and has been an element in auctions for decades. Centuries probably!

Does it happen all the time? No, i don't think it does. There are auction sales where the aim is to be open with the sale and price achieved. Council selloffs and repossessions come to mind. In these scenarios the aim is to get a sale at any cost, within reason. The within reason is secured by the reserve price. 

The more recent online auction games that we're talking about in this thread seem to be done in scenarios where the price achieved is more important than the openness and immediacy of a sale that an auction traditionally provided. 

eddddy

Countrysider said:

Shill bidding isn't against the law. Most auction terms and conditions i've seen refer to shill bidding in a more nuanced way. 

You're saying that the auctioneers are making shill bids above the reserve price. That's illegal under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.

Here's details of somebody who was prosecuted for shill bidding: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/ebay-shill-bidder-fined-3500



But even if you believe that it's legal, and that's what happened - why is it listed on the auctioneers website as sold? Are you still suggesting that the auctioneers made a mistake?


(So the shill bidding stuff is completely irrelevant. The issue is simply that the auctioneer made a mistake and listed it as sold when it wasn't.)

eddddy

Anyway - it's been fun. But I'm off now.


(And we've run out of milk. so can you pick some up on your way home tonight.)

Countrysider

eddddy said:

But even if you believe that it's legal, and that's what happened - why is it listed on the auctioneers website as sold? Are you still suggesting that the auctioneers made a mistake?

Not so much a mistake, but that's just how their online auction portal works: if the property has a bid that met the reserve then the property is marked as sold, moved off their open auctions, and added to past auctions. That part is automated.

Showing as 'sold' doesn't genuinely mean 'sold' in this context if the winner was the shill. In the before times the auctioneer would just halt the auction if no bid came after the shill but this is much harder to do in the timed solely online auction environment that started post-Covid. 

This is my theory anyway, and i can find no other likely explanation that fits the facts that i'm seeing. The example i posted earlier was re-listed 4 days after being sold. There's simply no other explanation that i can see as likely to explain that. It's dubious but i don't think illegal (though the link you posed was interesting and i do wonder if the auctioneers are aware of this given their recent adoption of fully online auctions).  

nasirbaig007

Countrysider said:

eddddy said:

But even if you believe that it's legal, and that's what happened - why is it listed on the auctioneers website as sold? Are you still suggesting that the auctioneers made a mistake?

Not so much a mistake, but that's just how their online auction portal works: if the property has a bid that met the reserve then the property is marked as sold, moved off their open auctions, and added to past auctions. That part is automated.

Showing as 'sold' doesn't genuinely mean 'sold' in this context if the winner was the shill. In the before times the auctioneer would just halt the auction if no bid came after the shill but this is much harder to do in the timed solely online auction environment that started post-Covid. 

This is my theory anyway, and i can find no other likely explanation that fits the facts that i'm seeing. The example i posted earlier was re-listed 4 days after being sold. There's simply no other explanation that i can see as likely to explain that. It's dubious but i don't think illegal (though the link you posed was interesting and i do wonder if the auctioneers are aware of this given their recent adoption of fully online auctions).  

Even in online auctions the property is not marked as sold until the gravel is hit and the auctioneer declare it sold . The auctions i am referring to run a simultaneous online and in room auction with a live feed. i was watching it live and the auctioneer did hit the hammer & declared it sold . it crossed the reserved price already.