IHT Done, Probate has been applied for, - Next... Land Registry

sgx2000

Many thanks to everyone who has replied....

I have a lot to work through...

And the have to explain this to the family.....

From what I have gathered so far.... The daughter currently living in the united states previously owned a property in the uk by way of a divorce settlement... 
And the other daughter has never owned a property but is exceedingly unlikely to be in the position to buy a property as she has been long term unemployed due to ill health and recieving DLA... 

I am struggling to get my head around any CGA implications...

Mojisola

sgx2000 said:

I am struggling to get my head around any CGA implications...

If the house goes into their ownership now and they aren't living in it, then any increase in value of their share between now and the eventual sale will be liable for CGT.  It may be that they won't have to pay anything - it depends on whether there is an increase and whether their share increases above the allowance applicable at the time.

RAS

And the daughter in receipt of benefits needs advice as to whether transfer of ownership would affect them

getmore4less

sgx2000 said:

Land_Registry said:

Others are rightly covering the fact that there are options to consider here before applying to update the land register. 

Whilst we will update the register on application that’s only if applied for and in some cases only the update re the death is applied for. 

IF they decide to transfer it into the daughters names then as mentioned the surviving joint owner would do that to herself plus daughters 
https://customerhelp.landregistry.gov.uk/guide-page-external/?stepid=c48ca216-8d82-eb11-a812-000d3ad48f95&kbonly=true&setanswer=
Probate is not required to deal with the property as it does not form part of his estate as mentioned. You may of course need it for other reasons 

Many many thanks for the reply....  (at this point I am finding this a tad baffeling )

A lot to think about here...
A lot to try explaining to the ex-wife an daughters...

Interesting that the change to the title can be done by the ex-wife....
Would this be easier than me, the executor, doing it?  (If that is what they decide)

You are missing the point.

It has to be done by the ex.

They are now the sole legal owner of the property.

Your part is to protect the beneficial interests by guiding the ex.

Land_Registry

To get the point across re legal and beneficial estates/ownership think of it in these terms 
The legal one is the whole of the land and building owned by both when alive. It can’t be split as you can’t have half the bricks, half the land and half a kitchen etc etc each. So when one dies the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner as it always has to be dealt with as a whole - hence IF it’s to be transferred to her plus two daughters she has to do that to herself plus the two. 

The property isn’t part of the deceased owner’s estate so probate is not needed to deal with the property and you as executor can’t transfer it.
The beneficial estate/ownership is really the value of the land and building. So £s and pence, which can of course be split. So when one dies but they’ve left their £s and pence share to someone else then there are options such as selling and sharing out the £s and pence or say the survivor paying them off. 

That’s why the taxation element can be complicated and how the beneficial shares/interests of each daughter can be dealt with in a variety of ways. Hence the need to get legal and financial advice for all. 

Once it’s been decided what’s to happen to the legal ownership then the register can be updated accordingly. But there are options to consider but we only register the choice made so can’t help advise you on what’s best here

sgx2000

Land_Registry said:

To get the point across re legal and beneficial estates/ownership think of it in these terms 
The legal one is the whole of the land and building owned by both when alive. It can’t be split as you can’t have half the bricks, half the land and half a kitchen etc etc each. So when one dies the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner as it always has to be dealt with as a whole - hence IF it’s to be transferred to her plus two daughters she has to do that to herself plus the two. 

The property isn’t part of the deceased owner’s estate so probate is not needed to deal with the property and you as executor can’t transfer it.
The beneficial estate/ownership is really the value of the land and building. So £s and pence, which can of course be split. So when one dies but they’ve left their £s and pence share to someone else then there are options such as selling and sharing out the £s and pence or say the survivor paying them off. 

That’s why the taxation element can be complicated and how the beneficial shares/interests of each daughter can be dealt with in a variety of ways. Hence the need to get legal and financial advice for all. 

Once it’s been decided what’s to happen to the legal ownership then the register can be update
d accordingly. But there are options to consider but we only register the choice made so can’t help advise you on what’s best here

Many Thanks for this reply...

Have I got this right...

1.  Even though the house was owned as 'tenants in common'  the house upon his death automatically becomes the property of the surviving owner??

2.  So, if 1. is right...  upon his death the 2 beneficiaries immediately become entitled to - in this case - 1/4 of the value of the property each.

3  If the surviving owner dies, but hasn't transferred ownership of 25% of the title to each of her daughters.  How do they prove ownership?

4.  If the surviving owner doesn't transfer title to her daughters.  Can I, as  executor, be held responsible / liable for not ensuring the title is transferred as per the deceased's will 

I do apologize if what I am asking seems stupid...  But this is my 1st time...

NorthYorkie

I really think you should be getting professional advice rather than trying to sort it out by yourself. You, as executor, are potentially in the firing line if anything goes wrong.

You have said that the property was held by the deceased and his ex-wife as "tenants in common" If that is correct, then the advice given by Land Registry is WRONG! They seem to be under the impression that the property was held as "Joint Tenants". In that case, the deceased's share automatically passes to the survivor, i.e. the ex-wife, and CANNOT be gifted to the daughters.

A tenant in common on the other hand CAN leave his share to whoever he wants.

So, you need to establish whether there was a tenancy in common or a joint tenancy first and also you need to follow the terms on the will as it is your responsibility as Executor to see that those terms are carried out. Hence the need for professional advice.

Land_Registry

sgx2000 said:

Land_Registry said:

To get the point across re legal and beneficial estates/ownership think of it in these terms 
The legal one is the whole of the land and building owned by both when alive. It can’t be split as you can’t have half the bricks, half the land and half a kitchen etc etc each. So when one dies the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner as it always has to be dealt with as a whole - hence IF it’s to be transferred to her plus two daughters she has to do that to herself plus the two. 

The property isn’t part of the deceased owner’s estate so probate is not needed to deal with the property and you as executor can’t transfer it.
The beneficial estate/ownership is really the value of the land and building. So £s and pence, which can of course be split. So when one dies but they’ve left their £s and pence share to someone else then there are options such as selling and sharing out the £s and pence or say the survivor paying them off. 

That’s why the taxation element can be complicated and how the beneficial shares/interests of each daughter can be dealt with in a variety of ways. Hence the need to get legal and financial advice for all. 

Once it’s been decided what’s to happen to the legal ownership then the register can be update
d accordingly. But there are options to consider but we only register the choice made so can’t help advise you on what’s best here

Many Thanks for this reply...

Have I got this right...

1.  Even though the house was owned as 'tenants in common'  the house upon his death automatically becomes the property of the surviving owner?? The legal ownership is owned wholly by the surviving joint owner. 

The TIC you refer relates to their beneficial ownerships as explained. 

That doesn’t mean the surviving owner can just do what they want as the deceased beneficial share exists but that’s all part of the next steps/best options discussion you need to all have 
Sorry North Yorkie but whilst you are right to suggest getting professional (legal/financial) advice you are wrong in your understanding of the TIC impact. The shares only exist re the beneficial estate. There are no shares re the legal estate hence it’s always dealt with as a whole 

2.  So, if 1. is right...  upon his death the 2 beneficiaries immediately become entitled to - in this case - 1/4 of the value of the property each. The deceased left them his beneficial share so if he had a half then that dived by two is a quarter 

3  If the surviving owner dies, but hasn't transferred ownership of 25% of the title to each of her daughters.  How do they prove ownership?  If she dies then probate is required for her as the whole legal estate forms part of her estate. Remember on his death the whole legal ownership passed to her. The two daughters still have a beneficial interest in his half share so IF they are going to become legal owners then her executor would need to transfer that to them. But don’t forget her half beneficial share although maybe her half is going to the two daughters of course as well 

4.  If the surviving owner doesn't transfer title to her daughters.  Can I, as  executor, be held responsible / liable for not ensuring the title is transferred as per the deceased's will  No. As the property isn’t in the deceased’s estate his executor has no liability. 

I do apologize if what I am asking seems stupid...  But this is my 1st time...

I have replied in bold. There is no need to apologise as it is complicated and often only something you need to deal with and understand once. 

But HMLR advice can only go so far as a) we deal primarily with the legal ownership and not the beneficial interests and b) we register the outcome of all these deliberations rather than deal with probate, wills, trusts etc in the way you are trying to. 

NorthYorkie

The Land Registry is talking about "legal ownership" i.e. the person in whose name the land is registered, whereas when sgx2000 asks about who "owns" the property he means "beneficial ownership", which is a totally different concept and the one I was addressing.

So whilst the ex-wife might be the only person in whose name the land is registered, she only "owns" (i.e. is only beneficially entitled to) a half share and holds the other half as a trustee for the daughters.

To say "As the property isn’t in the deceased’s estate his executor has no liability." is capable of being misinterpreted. For IHT purposes the value of a half-share in the property is part of the deceased's estate and the executor is liable for any tax on that value. 

Land_Registry

NorthYorkie said

To say "As the property isn’t in the deceased’s estate his executor has no liability." is capable of being misinterpreted. For IHT purposes the value of a half-share in the property is part of the deceased's estate and the executor is liable for any tax on that value. 

The OP was asking about liability for not transferring the title. As the executor can’t, for the reasons as stated, then there’s no liability for not doing so. 

Whilst you are right to widen the issues raised, especially as we agree professional advice is warranted, the context as asked is important. 

And if you refer to the original post it was asking “So my next task as executor is re-assignment of property on the Land Registry.”