LPA query

samsam89

Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

The terms of the trust should deal with this, but if he has simply given her a life interest with no conditions then I think he really needs to review his with with a STEP solicitor. 

As he is not married his estate is well into IHT territory his will needs to be clear about which legacies will be payed tax free. There are also CGT implications down the line when the house is eventually sold.

As for the LPAs I would try to get him to appoint the 3 of you to act jointly and severally rather than have his children as back-up, that way you can oversee what is going on with his finances. Just knowing you have that ability will provide a deterrent to her falling into temptation.

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

I have just had that very conversation with him using the above suggestion about joint and severally. His response was that she is not prepared to sign anything if we are allowed to be involved as she doesn’t want the confrontation…am I wrong to be worrying so much about this?

That should be ringing massive alarm bells, you have every cause to worry. It is your father’s decision on who his attorneys are and how they should act together but he appears to be being bullied into doing things her way. If she won’t agree to what he wants then if he is thinking straight he should just appoint his children.

This is not just about money, do you think she would make the best decisions as far as his welfare is concerned? How would you feel if he ever needs residential care and she chose the cheapest “over my dead body” care home. How would you feel about end of life decisions being entirely in her hands?

Well up until I learned of her arguably blackmailing demand to be just her or she won’t do it at all I wouldn’t have questioned anything really, but when you step back and lay the facts and sequence of events out it does ring massive alarm bells.

The trouble is when that person is in your ear and slam demands down I worry he will just make these decisions to maintain an easy life. She clearly doesn’t trust that we would allow her to continue using any money and I think that this stems from her financial reliance on dad and her need to protect herself.

Arguably what will cause the confrontation is her demanding to be sole LPA and excluding my brother and I. The perfectly reasonable way to deal with it is as mentioned previously to set up 3 LPA’s as joint and severally. That way nobody can shaft anyone in any circumstance without the other being aware of it.

gettingtheresometime

Keep_pedalling said:

gettingtheresometime said:

9Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

That's all very well & good to get correct legal advice but I think the father then needs to show his draft will to someone impartial to get their opinion on it. I'm sure that if my FIL had got an impartial POV then it would have been pointed out to him that potentially  his children would never see their inheritance....which was blindly obvious the moment we saw it after his death.

Which is why I suggested he speak to a STEP solicitor who would go through all the pros and cons with him. Paying for impartial advice from an expert in wills and trusts is better than the free impartial advice you might get from a stranger in the pub.

Sorry it might be because this sort of issue has been a really bone of contention for the last 16 yrs and has been brought into sharp focus by the death of my husband that I'm a little touchy about it but I don't understand why using a STEP solicitor would have made a difference my family's case. 

The will was written by a solicitor, written in plain straight forward english and whilst my FIL didn't have qualifications, he wasn't a stupid man so fully knew what he was (effectively) signing.

My point is is that had he shown the will to say his brother, I'm am sure that it would have been pointed out to him that there was potential for the partner to outlive his children (especially given the ages that my MIL and subsequently my FIL died and the age of the new partner) Yes I agree that if the will had stated she had say 5 yrs after death  before she had to vacate the property, then again there was a probability that the new partner might outlive the two children but that would have been a much smaller probability than leaving it open ended.

Mojisola

Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

I have just had that very conversation with him using the above suggestion about joint and severally. His response was that she is not prepared to sign anything if we are allowed to be involved as she doesn’t want the confrontation…am I wrong to be worrying so much about this?

That should be ringing massive alarm bells, you have every cause to worry. It is your father’s decision on who his attorneys are and how they should act together but he appears to be being bullied into doing things her way. If she won’t agree to what he wants then if he is thinking straight he should just appoint his children.

This is not just about money, do you think she would make the best decisions as far as his welfare is concerned? How would you feel if he ever needs residential care and she chose the cheapest “over my dead body” care home. How would you feel about end of life decisions being entirely in her hands?

If she thinks she is being cut out of the financial benefits that she wants for herself and her children, she wouldn't be the first to push the partner into marriage. 

Keep_pedalling

gettingtheresometime said:

Keep_pedalling said:

gettingtheresometime said:

9Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

That's all very well & good to get correct legal advice but I think the father then needs to show his draft will to someone impartial to get their opinion on it. I'm sure that if my FIL had got an impartial POV then it would have been pointed out to him that potentially  his children would never see their inheritance....which was blindly obvious the moment we saw it after his death.

Which is why I suggested he speak to a STEP solicitor who would go through all the pros and cons with him. Paying for impartial advice from an expert in wills and trusts is better than the free impartial advice you might get from a stranger in the pub.

Sorry it might be because this sort of issue has been a really bone of contention for the last 16 yrs and has been brought into sharp focus by the death of my husband that I'm a little touchy about it but I don't understand why using a STEP solicitor would have made a difference my family's case. 

The will was written by a solicitor, written in plain straight forward english and whilst my FIL didn't have qualifications, he wasn't a stupid man so fully knew what he was (effectively) signing.

My point is is that had he shown the will to say his brother, I'm am sure that it would have been pointed out to him that there was potential for the partner to outlive his children (especially given the ages that my MIL and subsequently my FIL died and the age of the new partner) Yes I agree that if the will had stated she had say 5 yrs after death  before she had to vacate the property, then again there was a probability that the new partner might outlive the two children but that would have been a much smaller probability than leaving it open ended.

Can another family member really be classed as impartial? There is also a big difference between seeking advice and acting soon it, and I fear this may be the case with the OPs father, who seems more afraid of upsetting his partner than in protecting his interests should she illegally exploit the powers he is about to give her.

Your FIL may or may not have sort advice before making the will but in the end it is up to each of us to leave our estate as we see fit. A good solicitor will cover all the what if situations and make suggestions but if the client chooses to ignore advice they will still draft the will as per the clients instructions. 

lr1277

You might want to get advice on the term jointly and severally regarding the LPA.
I am under the impression jointly and severally means one of you can act independently of the others. However the other attorneys would have a right to monitor bank accounts.
Hypothetically one of the attorneys could empty the bank accounts and the first the other attorneys would know about it is when they checked the account(s). By then it might be too late even if you got outside agencies like the police or OPG involved.
I think if your dad chooses for his attorneys to act jointly, then all the attorneys would need to agree on an action. But that would show that your dad didn’t trust his partner. Perhaps that is not a conversation you want to have with him nor your dad with his partner.

samsam89

lr1277 said:

You might want to get advice on the term jointly and severally regarding the LPA.
I am under the impression jointly and severally means one of you can act independently of the others. However the other attorneys would have a right to monitor bank accounts.
Hypothetically one of the attorneys could empty the bank accounts and the first the other attorneys would know about it is when they checked the account(s). By then it might be too late even if you got outside agencies like the police or OPG involved.
I think if your dad chooses for his attorneys to act jointly, then all the attorneys would need to agree on an action. But that would show that your dad didn’t trust his partner. Perhaps that is not a conversation you want to have with him nor your dad with his partner.

From what I have read, my understanding is similar. Though I believe jointly infers that all decisions must be agreed before any action is taken, and severally meaning that any appointed attorney can act independently, but the main attraction of that arrangement is that all attorneys have the ability to make decisions and review finances as they so wish and any unusual activity can be picked up on.

samsam89

Keep_pedalling said:

gettingtheresometime said:

Keep_pedalling said:

gettingtheresometime said:

9Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

That's all very well & good to get correct legal advice but I think the father then needs to show his draft will to someone impartial to get their opinion on it. I'm sure that if my FIL had got an impartial POV then it would have been pointed out to him that potentially  his children would never see their inheritance....which was blindly obvious the moment we saw it after his death.

Which is why I suggested he speak to a STEP solicitor who would go through all the pros and cons with him. Paying for impartial advice from an expert in wills and trusts is better than the free impartial advice you might get from a stranger in the pub.

Sorry it might be because this sort of issue has been a really bone of contention for the last 16 yrs and has been brought into sharp focus by the death of my husband that I'm a little touchy about it but I don't understand why using a STEP solicitor would have made a difference my family's case. 

The will was written by a solicitor, written in plain straight forward english and whilst my FIL didn't have qualifications, he wasn't a stupid man so fully knew what he was (effectively) signing.

My point is is that had he shown the will to say his brother, I'm am sure that it would have been pointed out to him that there was potential for the partner to outlive his children (especially given the ages that my MIL and subsequently my FIL died and the age of the new partner) Yes I agree that if the will had stated she had say 5 yrs after death  before she had to vacate the property, then again there was a probability that the new partner might outlive the two children but that would have been a much smaller probability than leaving it open ended.

Can another family member really be classed as impartial? There is also a big difference between seeking advice and acting soon it, and I fear this may be the case with the OPs father, who seems more afraid of upsetting his partner than in protecting his interests should she illegally exploit the powers he is about to give her.

Your FIL may or may not have sort advice before making the will but in the end it is up to each of us to leave our estate as we see fit. A good solicitor will cover all the what if situations and make suggestions but if the client chooses to ignore advice they will still draft the will as per the clients instructions. 

It certainly does feel like he’s afraid of upsetting her and is worryingly considering going down what I view as a very bad route. I’m gobsmacked his solicitor didn’t review the jointly and severally option with him. He maintains that wasn’t discussed. Unless of course she made it clear under no circumstances would she accept any involvement from myself or my brother.

lr1277

Talking about jointly and severally, your dad needs to decide who makes his health and welfare decisions, once he has lost capacity. And if he chooses more than one person whether the act jointly or jointly and severally.

samsam89

lr1277 said:

Talking about jointly and severally, your dad needs to decide who makes his health and welfare decisions, once he has lost capacity. And if he chooses more than one person whether the act jointly or jointly and severally.

This would (under his current suggestion) also be her. With my brother and I in reserve.

Keep_pedalling

samsam89 said:

lr1277 said:

You might want to get advice on the term jointly and severally regarding the LPA.
I am under the impression jointly and severally means one of you can act independently of the others. However the other attorneys would have a right to monitor bank accounts.
Hypothetically one of the attorneys could empty the bank accounts and the first the other attorneys would know about it is when they checked the account(s). By then it might be too late even if you got outside agencies like the police or OPG involved.
I think if your dad chooses for his attorneys to act jointly, then all the attorneys would need to agree on an action. But that would show that your dad didn’t trust his partner. Perhaps that is not a conversation you want to have with him nor your dad with his partner.

From what I have read, my understanding is similar. Though I believe jointly infers that all decisions must be agreed before any action is taken, and severally meaning that any appointed attorney can act independently, but the main attraction of that arrangement is that all attorneys have the ability to make decisions and review finances as they so wish and any unusual activity can be picked up on.

Apart from the problem of getting consensus there is the issue that if one of the attorneys dies or becomes mentally incapacitated the LPA fails.