LPA query

samsam89

elsien said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

As an example, if your father lost capacity, his partner could empty his bank accounts and if she is the only one with LPA then there is no one to check up on what is happening.

And if this only comes to light after he passes away and there’s little money left in the estate it will be near impossible to prod anyone to look into it. 

The OPG who oversees LPA is inundated and generally only really carry out checks after a concern has been raised while the LPA is still in force. 

So while in theory there is regulation, in practice it’s basically impossible to do so as we would have no idea what actions she may have taken and can therefore not report anything? The whole thing is just ringing alarm bells to me the more I read and look into it.

gettingtheresometime

samsam89 said:

gettingtheresometime said:

samsam89 said:

She will also have the legal right to live in the house indefinitely until she chooses to move or passes away at which point it becomes the property of my brother and I. He also wishes to set something up so that a fund of money remains earning interest that she can live off, but the lump sum then passes to myself and my brother upon her death (not sure if that’s even possible…?)

This seems to be a very reasonable way to set things out as it gives her the security she needs while ultimately ensuring my brother and I inherit from our father in the way he wishes.

I obviously don't know how old this lady is or the length of your father's relationship with her but can I offer you my experience as a cautionary tale?

my FIL also stated in his will that his new partner, that he met following the death of my mil, could do exactly as your father is suggesting. 

He died 5yrs after my mil died & 16yrs later (so more than 3x the max length of their relationship) the woman is still in the property. 

Last October my husband died without seeing a penny of any inheritance from his parents. Potentially his sister could also die without seeing a penny. 

It would have been far easier if my fil had simply left the house to my husband & sil & then let the new partner sue the estate.

Thanks for the reply. What do you mean by sue the estate? Why would the new partner want or be able to do that? And for what purpose?

Perhaps sue the estate was the wrong choice of words - perhaps challenge the will would have been a better choice of phrase.

I know in my particular case, my fil's new partner was naffed off that she hadn't been left more (she was also left a %age of the proceeds when the house is eventually sold).

the other thing I'd get your dad to consider is this - in my fil's will there was a condition that the new partner couldn't co-habit in the property but it turns out she has been cohabiting, so effectively having her cake & eating it. 

elsien

samsam89 said:

elsien said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

As an example, if your father lost capacity, his partner could empty his bank accounts and if she is the only one with LPA then there is no one to check up on what is happening.

And if this only comes to light after he passes away and there’s little money left in the estate it will be near impossible to prod anyone to look into it. 

The OPG who oversees LPA is inundated and generally only really carry out checks after a concern has been raised while the LPA is still in force. 

So while in theory there is regulation, in practice it’s basically impossible to do so as we would have no idea what actions she may have taken and can therefore not report anything? The whole thing is just ringing alarm bells to me the more I read and look into it.

This is the information you would need to provide.

https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian
The systems are meant to be there to check what’s happening anyway, but how rigorously those are carried out - I wouldn’t want to bet my life savings on it. 

samsam89

elsien said:

samsam89 said:

elsien said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

As an example, if your father lost capacity, his partner could empty his bank accounts and if she is the only one with LPA then there is no one to check up on what is happening.

And if this only comes to light after he passes away and there’s little money left in the estate it will be near impossible to prod anyone to look into it. 

The OPG who oversees LPA is inundated and generally only really carry out checks after a concern has been raised while the LPA is still in force. 

So while in theory there is regulation, in practice it’s basically impossible to do so as we would have no idea what actions she may have taken and can therefore not report anything? The whole thing is just ringing alarm bells to me the more I read and look into it.

This is the information you would need to provide.

https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian
The systems are meant to be there to check what’s happening anyway, but how rigorously those are carried out - I wouldn’t want to bet my life savings on it. 

How on earth do you go about providing proof of financial records for example if you don’t have access to them to know what’s going on…!

samsam89

gettingtheresometime said:

samsam89 said:

gettingtheresometime said:

samsam89 said:

She will also have the legal right to live in the house indefinitely until she chooses to move or passes away at which point it becomes the property of my brother and I. He also wishes to set something up so that a fund of money remains earning interest that she can live off, but the lump sum then passes to myself and my brother upon her death (not sure if that’s even possible…?)

This seems to be a very reasonable way to set things out as it gives her the security she needs while ultimately ensuring my brother and I inherit from our father in the way he wishes.

I obviously don't know how old this lady is or the length of your father's relationship with her but can I offer you my experience as a cautionary tale?

my FIL also stated in his will that his new partner, that he met following the death of my mil, could do exactly as your father is suggesting. 

He died 5yrs after my mil died & 16yrs later (so more than 3x the max length of their relationship) the woman is still in the property. 

Last October my husband died without seeing a penny of any inheritance from his parents. Potentially his sister could also die without seeing a penny. 

It would have been far easier if my fil had simply left the house to my husband & sil & then let the new partner sue the estate.

Thanks for the reply. What do you mean by sue the estate? Why would the new partner want or be able to do that? And for what purpose?

Perhaps sue the estate was the wrong choice of words - perhaps challenge the will would have been a better choice of phrase.

I know in my particular case, my fil's new partner was naffed off that she hadn't been left more (she was also left a %age of the proceeds when the house is eventually sold).

the other thing I'd get your dad to consider is this - in my fil's will there was a condition that the new partner couldn't co-habit in the property but it turns out she has been cohabiting, so effectively having her cake & eating it. 

I’m not sure that has been considered or what his views on it are. What I do know is that she is able to downsize if she requires but I’m not sure what happens afterwards. Does the new property become held in trust like the original one or does it then become owned by her?

Keep_pedalling

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

The terms of the trust should deal with this, but if he has simply given her a life interest with no conditions then I think he really needs to review his with with a STEP solicitor. 

As he is not married his estate is well into IHT territory his will needs to be clear about which legacies will be payed tax free. There are also CGT implications down the line when the house is eventually sold.

As for the LPAs I would try to get him to appoint the 3 of you to act jointly and severally rather than have his children as back-up, that way you can oversee what is going on with his finances. Just knowing you have that ability will provide a deterrent to her falling into temptation.

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

samsam89

Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

The terms of the trust should deal with this, but if he has simply given her a life interest with no conditions then I think he really needs to review his with with a STEP solicitor. 

As he is not married his estate is well into IHT territory his will needs to be clear about which legacies will be payed tax free. There are also CGT implications down the line when the house is eventually sold.

As for the LPAs I would try to get him to appoint the 3 of you to act jointly and severally rather than have his children as back-up, that way you can oversee what is going on with his finances. Just knowing you have that ability will provide a deterrent to her falling into temptation.

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

I have just had that very conversation with him using the above suggestion about joint and severally. His response was that she is not prepared to sign anything if we are allowed to be involved as she doesn’t want the confrontation…am I wrong to be worrying so much about this?

gettingtheresometime

9Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

That's all very well & good to get correct legal advice but I think the father then needs to show his draft will to someone impartial to get their opinion on it. I'm sure that if my FIL had got an impartial POV then it would have been pointed out to him that potentially  his children would never see their inheritance....which was blindly obvious the moment we saw it after his death.

Keep_pedalling

samsam89 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

The terms of the trust should deal with this, but if he has simply given her a life interest with no conditions then I think he really needs to review his with with a STEP solicitor. 

As he is not married his estate is well into IHT territory his will needs to be clear about which legacies will be payed tax free. There are also CGT implications down the line when the house is eventually sold.

As for the LPAs I would try to get him to appoint the 3 of you to act jointly and severally rather than have his children as back-up, that way you can oversee what is going on with his finances. Just knowing you have that ability will provide a deterrent to her falling into temptation.

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

I have just had that very conversation with him using the above suggestion about joint and severally. His response was that she is not prepared to sign anything if we are allowed to be involved as she doesn’t want the confrontation…am I wrong to be worrying so much about this?

That should be ringing massive alarm bells, you have every cause to worry. It is your father’s decision on who his attorneys are and how they should act together but he appears to be being bullied into doing things her way. If she won’t agree to what he wants then if he is thinking straight he should just appoint his children.

This is not just about money, do you think she would make the best decisions as far as his welfare is concerned? How would you feel if he ever needs residential care and she chose the cheapest “over my dead body” care home. How would you feel about end of life decisions being entirely in her hands?

Keep_pedalling

gettingtheresometime said:

9Keep_pedalling said:

samsam89 said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

In terms of her continuing to live in the house after your father's death, how old is she? Has your dad thought this through, what if she re-marries.

I’m not sure if he has thought that part through. She is around 15 years younger. What are the implications if she were to remarry? I wasn’t aware there would be any…

You should encourage him to spend a few hundred of his savings talking all this through with a solicitor, he might take more kindly to advise from a professional than from his children.

That's all very well & good to get correct legal advice but I think the father then needs to show his draft will to someone impartial to get their opinion on it. I'm sure that if my FIL had got an impartial POV then it would have been pointed out to him that potentially  his children would never see their inheritance....which was blindly obvious the moment we saw it after his death.

Which is why I suggested he speak to a STEP solicitor who would go through all the pros and cons with him. Paying for impartial advice from an expert in wills and trusts is better than the free impartial advice you might get from a stranger in the pub.