CEL CCJ set aside successful but now I have to defend the original claim. Please help.

Sitries1

I was successful in court with getting my CCJ set aside against the Cival Enforcement scumbags!! All the fines and paperwork had been sent to my old address and therefore the judge was happy to set aside the judgement. The judge however was not interested in getting them to pay my fees which was disappointing. The judge then told me to provide a full defence to the court against the original claim however I still had no proper details of the original claim!!! 

Two attempts were made to get the info from CEL via e mail (with the court copied in) and their response was that they would provide the info within 30 days. This however was no good to me as the court ordered me to defend the claim by the 18th feb (tomorrow). I have today sent a letter to the court (by post and E mail) with CEL copied in and low and behold CEL have now issued me with the original PCN (with photos). An SAR request has been made which I’m still waiting to receive. 

So what do I do now??  The vehicle in question is a company vehicle (truck) and I don’t know who was driving because it was from 2018 and many workers have access to the vehicle. It would be impossible for me to say that who was driving with it being so many years ago and the photos they have submitted do not show who is driving.  

Is this a reasonable defense or do I need to look down other avenues? I’m half tempted to just offer to pay the original fine of £60 just for all the stress and aggravation to stop but half of me is saying to keep fighting as a matter of Principle for all the grief and stress they have put me through. 

What are you thoughts guys, help would be much appreciated. I’ve tried looking at the stickies but it’s pretty confusing to know which template or defense I need to adopt. Below is the letter/e mail I sent to the court today if that’s of any help. I’m also a bit Confused now about what to do now that CEL have issued the Original PCN so late in the day! Is the letter I’ve submitted to the court sufficient as my defense or do I need to raise another defense tomorow now that I have the PCN info???? 

“Mr …….    (…….       County Court)

 Following on from my court hearing on the 27th January 2022 with yourself in reference to the claim above - please find attached two e mail requests made by me (the defendant) to the Cival Enforcement Ltd (the claimant) requesting full details and supporting evidence of the claim against me (I have never received this).  As you will see from the attachments and e mail thread below, both my requests have been met with the same response by CEL.  It is now one day before my 'defense' is due to be submitted to the court and I still don't have the details/evidence of what i am supposed to be defending.  

 For a company that are so keen to take legal action and impose CCJ's on people over an alleged parking infringement from back in 2018, i find it very hard to believe that they cannot provide me the information I require to defend myself in good time to respond to the court!  As previously stated and made clear in my e mails to them, the Toyota truck that is deemed to have breached parking regulations is a company vehicle owned by ………….  This vehicle has had multiple drivers over the years and its going to be very difficult to identify who was driving at the time of the supposed breech without the proper evidence. 

 I put it to the court that 'Cowboy' parking company's like CEL that use 'Bullyboy' tactics to prey on sometimes innocent drivers need to be clamped down on!  The distress that they are causing drivers by being so quick to issue CCJ's when they haven't even established where someone lives is both unnecessary and unacceptable and i ask that the court throws out this claim.  I have already had to have a day off work and pay £250 to attend court in order to get the CCJ against me set aside and this saga continues to rumble on causing more and more stress. 

 If the court is not willing to have this claim thrown out then please advise what exactly I am meant to do now?  CEL have been copied into this e mail and I have sent a paper copy of the e mail/letter to the court (next day delivery). 

 Regards”

Fruitcake

It is not a fine.


Use the template defence you will find in the sticky Announcements at the top of the forum, then show us your version of paragraphs 2 and 3.
Think very carefully what you will put in paragraph 2. 

Also read the guide to court written by bargepole that you will find in the second post of the NEWBIES sticky Announcement.

Paragraph 3 should tell the court the type of car park (hospital, residential, retail, free, pay and display, as well as why the defendant is not liable.

Show us your two amended paragraphs asap before you submit them to the court and the claimant.

Please also tell us what happened when you complained to the landowner, where the alleged event occurred (it may have cropped up here before), and whether you have complained to your MP yet.

Sitries1

Fruitcake said:

It is not a fine

Use the template defence you will find in the sticky Announcements at the top of the forum, then show us your version of paragraphs 2 and 3.
Think very carefully what you will put in paragraph 2. 

Also read the guide to court written by bargepole that you will find in the second post of the NEWBIES sticky Announcement.

Paragraph 3 should tell the court the type of car park (hospital, residential, retail, free, pay and display, as well as why the defendant is not liable.

Show us your two amended paragraphs asap before you submit them to the court and the claimant.

Please also tell us what happened when you complained to the landowner, where the alleged event occurred (it may have cropped up here before), and whether you have complained to your MP yet.

Paragraph 2 

“It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question but liability is denied. The vehicle is a company vehicle owned by ……….. and because the incident dates back to 2018 it’s impossible to know who was driving at the time of the alleged contravention”. 

Paragraph 3 

“All correspondence relating to this incident was sent by the claimant to an old address so the first the defendant heard about this matter was when an old neighbour forwarded on some mail which consisted of a CCJ. The defendant has successfully had the CCJ set aside in court and the claimant did not attend.  It was only yesterday at 4pm that the claimant sent the original PCN to the claimant. The Defendant cannot be held liable due to the Claimant not complying with the ‘keeper liability’ requirements set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4.”

KeithP

It was only yesterday at 4pm that the claimant sent the original PCN to the claimant.

This sentence in your para 3 needs some adjustment.

I assume by 'yesterday' you mean Wednesday 16th February. By the time the Claimant or Judge reads this, 'yesterday' will have a different meaning.
Surely the Claimant sent the original PCN to the Defendant.

Johnersh

**edited:  general note**

Always best to check the pleadings carefully and the scope of the declaration that is required of you.  Draft it well. Good luck. 

Umkomaas

👆 A lawyer! 👆 Do not ignore.

Sitries1

I have amended my post to take out the personal information In my case. Those of you who have commented on the sensitive info - please could you edit your posts. 🙏

I don’t want these cowboys getting away with it. 

Sitries1

My defense is due to be submitted today - here are my paragraphs 2 and 3 if any once can check if they are ok.

"The facts as known to the Defendant:

2.      It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question but liability is denied. The vehicle is a company vehicle owned by X Y Management Solutions Ltd and because the incident dates back to 2018 it’s impossible to know who was driving at the time of the alleged contravention.  The photos on the PCN are unclear and whilst an SAR application has been made – these details have not been sent to me by the claimant.

 

3.  All correspondence relating to this incident was sent by the claimant to an old address so the first the defendant heard about this matter was when an old neighbour forwarded on some mail which looked ‘important’ and ended up consisting of a CCJ from the claimant. The defendant has since successfully had the CCJ set aside in court where bye the claimant did not attend.  The court ordered that a defence be made by no later than Thursday 18th February 2022 however the defendant still had no information about the alleged contravention.  After numerous attempts by the defendant to obtain the information regarding the PCN It was only on Wednesday 17th February at 4pm (the eve of the defendant needing to make his defence) that the claimant sent the original PCN to the claimant. Having now reviewed the information within the PCN and taken another day off work to form this defence- The Defendant cannot be held liable due to the Claimant not complying with the ‘keeper liability’ requirements set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4."

Now if I'm not mistaken - the rest of the template is 'standard' and doesn't require any alteration So the only other part of the template i now need to change is the part at the bottom about 'costs'.  My question here is - can i now seek to reclaim the costs from the set aside judgement (day off work and application fee)?  Or do i need to just stick to the costs associated with the upcoming hearing which would just be a day off work i guess????

Thank you in advance for any help offered - due to CEL only sending me the PCN at 4pm yesterday when my defence is due to be submitted today, Ive had to take the day off work and am in a bit of a panic to get it submitted without messing anything up.   

 

Fruitcake

If you have the PCN, then you now know where the alleged event occurred, and the reason why it was issued.

You should include this information in your para 3 followed by the reasons why you are not liable. Something along the lines of, 

Company vehicle with VRM XXnn YYY entered car park at *location* on date DDMMYYYY. The claimant has provided insufficient details of the alleged parking contract breach, and only provided a copy of the original PCN to the defendant at 4pm on the day before the court mandated date to submit a defence. 

You haven't explained to us if the company is the registered keeper and named the defendant as the hirer/lessee or day to day keeper or driver, or if you are the registered keeper of a vehicle owned by a company.

Johnersh

@Fruitcake that defence whilst sometimes appropriate is not applicable here. 

Le_Kirk

The court ordered that a defence be made by no later than Thursday 18th February 2022 however the defendant still had no information about the alleged contravention.  After numerous attempts by the defendant to obtain the information regarding the PCN It was only on Wednesday 17th February at 4pm

Unless my calendar is wrong (in which case I am taking it back) today Friday is the 18th February, Thursday was the 17th.