Sham Grievance, what info/documents to request for Appeal

SChitmehard

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

eamon

If you don't work there anymore then it is a waste of your time. If you still work there then in reality you won't get your pound of flesh as management/HR will normally close ranks. In the end it usually boils down to "he/she said" and if there were any witnesses they were either not believed/not asked/not wanting to be involved. To appeal a greivance you will likely need to demonstrate that the followed process was flawed. If the nature of your work was a regulated sector (somebody with more knowledge may contribute), then I imagine that you could whistleblow. If you still work there then that usually doesn't end well either.

Browntoa

Some background in their earlier thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6331528/what-to-do-about-references-and-reason-for-leaving-after-ambushed-with-dismissal#latest

Dakta

I echo the two posts above, your energy is better spent in advancing forward with your life.

I don't know what you are after, I presume it's to make them think they've done wrong? it won't happen.

There will always be someone (i/e a bad manager)  who needs 'showing whats what' and in the rare situation where you do get to say your piece, that person will fade and before you know it another will take its place. Real winning is not getting them to admit defeat but getting to where you want to be regardless...

Marcon

SChitmehard said:

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

Given you were only there for a few months, what remedy do you believe is available to you if your ex employer simply ignores whatever you send, or dismisses it in a couple of sentences?

Difficult as it undoubtedly is, try to recognise that you aren't going to get the event/outcome you think/hope you will. Nursing your grievance by drawing it out isn't going to help you.

Undervalued

SChitmehard said:

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

Sorry but it is a complete waste of time!

As others have suggested there in no realistic way of forcing your now ex-employer to engage with this appeal in any meaningful way.

1) If you really want to you could make a subject access request under the GDPR for all information they hold about you. However, be realistic, if they hold something back or simply shred anything "inconvenient" it is going to be almost impossible for you to prove that has happened. Even if you could prove it, all that is likely to happen is that they get a minor "slap on the wrist" from the information commissioner. That won't help you in any useful way.

2) Yes, to be blunt you need to consider whether it is in any way helpful to you to continue battling with this former employer.

SChitmehard

Undervalued said:

SChitmehard said:

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

Sorry but it is a complete waste of time!

As others have suggested there in no realistic way of forcing your now ex-employer to engage with this appeal in any meaningful way.

1) If you really want to you could make a subject access request under the GDPR for all information they hold about you. However, be realistic, if they hold something back or simply shred anything "inconvenient" it is going to be almost impossible for you to prove that has happened. Even if you could prove it, all that is likely to happen is that they get a minor "slap on the wrist" from the information commissioner. That won't help you in any useful way.

2) Yes, to be blunt you need to consider whether it is in any way helpful to you to continue battling with this former employer.

Thanks for all your replies and I did take onboard what has been said above and thought about my decision. I understand it's often better to walk away from these kind of stressful and most of the time un-productive situations, and I have considered all the options. I am unemployed and there is nothing I can do to get a job until this is resolved so I have nothing to lose even though it may be a waste of time. 

1) Undervalued: I am planning to hit them with a GDPR/DPA request once the appeal has been heard as it may catch more "chatter" about me within the organization. I am aware they could shred/hide data but that's (illegal and) a risk I'll have to take. 

2) Like I said I submitted a detailed grievance and they did not answer any of the concerns I raised, instead just fobbed me off. They certainly did not follow the grievance procedure for a start and did not do a real investigation. If anyone can give me advice on what kind of documents I am entitled to ask them to handover to me for the appeal I would really appreciate it (eg am I entitled to ask them for (1) list of witnesses (2) witness statements (3) terms of reference. What SHOULD they hand over to me and what SHOULD I ask them for.

Thanks

lincroft1710

SChitmehard said:

Undervalued said:

SChitmehard said:

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

Sorry but it is a complete waste of time!

As others have suggested there in no realistic way of forcing your now ex-employer to engage with this appeal in any meaningful way.

1) If you really want to you could make a subject access request under the GDPR for all information they hold about you. However, be realistic, if they hold something back or simply shred anything "inconvenient" it is going to be almost impossible for you to prove that has happened. Even if you could prove it, all that is likely to happen is that they get a minor "slap on the wrist" from the information commissioner. That won't help you in any useful way.

2) Yes, to be blunt you need to consider whether it is in any way helpful to you to continue battling with this former employer.

Thanks for all your replies and I did take onboard what has been said above and thought about my decision. I understand it's often better to walk away from these kind of stressful and most of the time un-productive situations, and I have considered all the options. I am unemployed and there is nothing I can do to get a job until this is resolved so I have nothing to lose even though it may be a waste of time. 

1) Undervalued: I am planning to hit them with a GDPR/DPA request once the appeal has been heard as it may catch more "chatter" about me within the organization. I am aware they could shred/hide data but that's (illegal and) a risk I'll have to take. 

2) Like I said I submitted a detailed grievance and they did not answer any of the concerns I raised, instead just fobbed me off. They certainly did not follow the grievance procedure for a start and did not do a real investigation. If anyone can give me advice on what kind of documents I am entitled to ask them to handover to me for the appeal I would really appreciate it (eg am I entitled to ask them for (1) list of witnesses (2) witness statements (3) terms of reference. What SHOULD they hand over to me and what SHOULD I ask them for.

Thanks

If it isn't resolved (which it probably never will be to your satisfaction) then what will you do about getting a job?


If they have destroyed data which they held about you, then they no longer hold it.


Most importantly, what are you expecting to achieve from an appeal. They will most probably just confirm the original decision anyway. 

Chris_English

SChitmehard said:

Undervalued said:

SChitmehard said:

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

Sorry but it is a complete waste of time!

As others have suggested there in no realistic way of forcing your now ex-employer to engage with this appeal in any meaningful way.

1) If you really want to you could make a subject access request under the GDPR for all information they hold about you. However, be realistic, if they hold something back or simply shred anything "inconvenient" it is going to be almost impossible for you to prove that has happened. Even if you could prove it, all that is likely to happen is that they get a minor "slap on the wrist" from the information commissioner. That won't help you in any useful way.

2) Yes, to be blunt you need to consider whether it is in any way helpful to you to continue battling with this former employer.

Thanks for all your replies and I did take onboard what has been said above and thought about my decision. I understand it's often better to walk away from these kind of stressful and most of the time un-productive situations, and I have considered all the options. I am unemployed and there is nothing I can do to get a job until this is resolved so I have nothing to lose even though it may be a waste of time. 

1) Undervalued: I am planning to hit them with a GDPR/DPA request once the appeal has been heard as it may catch more "chatter" about me within the organization. I am aware they could shred/hide data but that's (illegal and) a risk I'll have to take. 

2) Like I said I submitted a detailed grievance and they did not answer any of the concerns I raised, instead just fobbed me off. They certainly did not follow the grievance procedure for a start and did not do a real investigation. If anyone can give me advice on what kind of documents I am entitled to ask them to handover to me for the appeal I would really appreciate it (eg am I entitled to ask them for (1) list of witnesses (2) witness statements (3) terms of reference. What SHOULD they hand over to me and what SHOULD I ask them for.

Thanks

Why can’t you get a job? You are writing as though you can never work again if you don’t get this dealt with to your satisfaction.

One likely outcome of what you are doing is that they will now write any reference to try to ensure that no future employer has the same problems as you are intent on causing them.

SChitmehard

Jillanddy said:

SChitmehard said:

Undervalued said:

SChitmehard said:

Hi all,

I submitted a grievance before the end of my employment. My grievance had lots of info about what went on (harm to service users, inadequate training/supervision, misrepresentation of post), but you won't be surprised to know that they did not answer even one question that I raised in my grievance and was not upheld. Instead they told me it was all my fault and I did not report incidents on the electronic system that could result in harm to service users, and I did not raise any concerns about inadequate supervision (both of which I did VERBALLY with my manager and which got me fired).

It may be a waste of time, but I would like appeal and hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face. The appeal policy is very similar to the council policy.

My questions are:
1) What info/documents to request from the employer (eg Terms of reference, witness statements from that they interviewed, what other documents am I entitled to see)

2) Is there anything else to consider or I need to do?

Thanks.

Sorry but it is a complete waste of time!

As others have suggested there in no realistic way of forcing your now ex-employer to engage with this appeal in any meaningful way.

1) If you really want to you could make a subject access request under the GDPR for all information they hold about you. However, be realistic, if they hold something back or simply shred anything "inconvenient" it is going to be almost impossible for you to prove that has happened. Even if you could prove it, all that is likely to happen is that they get a minor "slap on the wrist" from the information commissioner. That won't help you in any useful way.

2) Yes, to be blunt you need to consider whether it is in any way helpful to you to continue battling with this former employer.

Thanks for all your replies and I did take onboard what has been said above and thought about my decision. I understand it's often better to walk away from these kind of stressful and most of the time un-productive situations, and I have considered all the options. I am unemployed and there is nothing I can do to get a job until this is resolved so I have nothing to lose even though it may be a waste of time. 

1) Undervalued: 

2) Like I said I submitted a detailed grievance and they did not answer any of the concerns I raised, instead just fobbed me off. They certainly did not follow the grievance procedure for a start and did not do a real investigation. If anyone can give me advice on what kind of documents I am entitled to ask them to handover to me for the appeal I would really appreciate it (eg am I entitled to ask them for (1) list of witnesses (2) witness statements (3) terms of reference. What SHOULD they hand over to me and what SHOULD I ask them for.

Thanks

I know that you think you are listening to the advice here, but you really aren't. You are letting your anger blind you. You have made it clear in your OP, and in the previous thread, that this is about appealing and "hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face". You really aren't getting the narrative here: even if they agree to hold an appeal (and if they don't there is not a think you can do about it) and your manager comes to it, and you get to say all those allegations, the outcome will be that are were dismissed because you were not capable of doing your job, and that narrative will be upheld and remain. It does not matter a fig whether it is true or not, because that is the official reason for your dismissal and that will not change.

I am unemployed and there is nothing I can do to get a job until this is resolved so I have nothing to lose even though it may be a waste of time.  
That is not true. As others have already told you, there is not going to be any resolution that you find acceptable. You can do plenty to find a job. There is no evidence that the employer has reported anything to the regulatory body (yet - but make enough of a pest of yourself and they might just do that). OK you have been dismissed, but prior to that you had a long and stable employment record and references from there to prove it. You can make a reasonable case without going in to too much detail that this four months was a mistake on your part, the job wasn't right for you, the employer wasn't what you thought, or whatever. If everyone who had ever been dismissed never worked again, then unemployment would be even higher - loads of people get past such things, and that includes many people who actually may have deserved to be sacked! What you can do is start out by stopping doing what you know is a waste of time, and use that time more wisely to get another job. 

I am planning to hit them with a GDPR/DPA request once the appeal has been heard as it may catch more "chatter" about me within the organization. I am aware they could shred/hide data but that's (illegal and) a risk I'll have to take.
You do realise, don't you, that they do not need to shred anything? They don't need to give you anything either. And there are perfectly valid and lawful reasons to refuse to provide information as well. You aren't taking a risk, you are being delusional, if you think that they will provide you with anything remotely useful; and even if they did - so what, you cannot overturn the reason for dismissal, you have no case to bring in law, so if they handed you an email from the Managing Director to the person who dismissed you that said "please ensure that you unfairly dismiss SChitmehard and make up as many lies as you want, just get them out of here", there wouldn't be a single thing you could do about it, you would still be dismissed, and the grounds for the dismissal would still be that your capability was deemed insufficient. Nothing at all would change.

 what kind of documents I am entitled to ask them to handover to me
You have had the answer to that. None. You are entitled to nothing. You can ask for the sun, moon and stars - if they don't want to give them to you then they don't have to, even if they have them in their possession. Entitlement is a legally enforceable position - you have no ability to legally enforce anything here, so you are not entitled to anything. They are entitled, on the other hand, to refuse to provide you with anything. You could ask for a list of witnesses - they can tell you that they will not provide it as they are protecting the identity of those people. Ditto with the witness statements, if they want to. They didn't actually need any such things anyway - at four months into the employment, they could have simply hired a skywriter to sign "you're fired" over the roof of your house, and without requiring a single reason for sacking you. They don't even, legally, have to tell you why they sacked you. 

I do get that you are angry, and why you are angry. But I am going to repeat something that you don't want to hear. There was an electronic system into which you were supposed to enter any safeguarding or risk concerns that you had. They said that you didn't do that. And so far you haven't disputed that. I very much doubt that they have so far reported that to the regulatory body. But they should have done. They still can. You are at risk of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy - if they report now then this will definitely not be the end of the matter. And they quite probably won't be the ones investigated - it will be you. 

Please, please heed what everyone is telling you. It can still get worse. And you are NEVER going to get what you want from this or any "resolution". The only thing that will satisfy you will be that your manager admits they lied about everything (assuming they did), and that you shouldn't have been dismissed. You've said that! And that is never going to happen. 

Thanks for your detailed response Jillanddy.

>hopefully face my manager so I can say all these things and get a response to see if he denies all this when face to face

Yes, some of these people are very destructive and never are held to account and just carry on. I know that this manager has done similar to a previous employee and he just took it and resigned. If he had done something, anything then maybe it would change this managers behaviour or atleast bring it to the attention of higher management. For me it is too late, but I always think to myself that if the previous employee had stood up then maybe I would not have gone through this. 

> that is the official reason for your dismissal and that will not change.

I'm hoping they'll change it to something else, like "end of contract" rather than dismissal.

> There is no evidence that the employer has reported anything to the regulatory body (yet - but make enough of a pest of yourself and they might just do that)

That is a possibility, but I can argue it's retaliation and also report my manager to the same body.

> You can do plenty to find a job

I am applying for jobs, but if the references aren't forthcoming then it doesn't matter as I won't get them. So I just have to keep going and see what comes out of it, maybe they'll be more co-operative as the process continues.

>And there are perfectly valid and lawful reasons to refuse to provide information as well (GDPR/DPA).

Yes, I get that they can redact/shred/withhold anything that may help me. I am well aware of how corrupt these businesses/HR are.

> you have no case to bring in law

PIDA - maybe?

>if they handed you an email from the Managing Director to the person who dismissed you that said "please ensure that you unfairly dismiss SChitmehard and make up as many lies as you want, just get them out of here", there wouldn't be a single thing you could do about it

I'd still be dismissed but that would mean they wrote Untrue reasons for dismissal?

> You are entitled to nothing (documents for appeal).

Maybe I am not entitled to any documents, but I would still like your/forum members advice on what to request them to send me which could help me. I know I will NOT get my job back and would not want to go back there anyway, but I still want to go through with the appeal.

Thaanks

BrassicWoman

Posting at 3:10am is not a good sign.
Write to the HR department and ask what kind of reference they will be giving you. Then you can stop wondering.