New guide: American Express tips & tricks

Se1Lad

Marchitiello said:

WillPS said:

Marchitiello said:

@WillPS I did not say it was to the masses, but if you write an article to cover Amex, you will then make it more complete to highlight even those products that could be beneficial to a number of more affluent moneysaving experts.. having more disposable income does not mean that there is no need to maximise the return.. over the last two years, we got more then half of the Platinum annual fee back either in cash or additional bonuses. With the BA Premium Plus, bonuses and offers included, we manage to make one or two business trip per year in periods/location that would cost us at least £3-7k paying all cash, so far for £195 per year (September will be the first time at £250 for me).

Then you fundamentally misunderstand what MSE is.

It is a rich resource of money saving and money making ideas for the mass market, it is not a complete guide to all open market finance products.

I would disagree, in the sense that it is not only for the mass market… we often discuss premium banking products and there is plenty of evidence that there is a discrete number of users on this forums with whom the MSE writers interact, that have Premier bank accounts, premium credit cards and even some Wealth/Private banking customers. 

Therefore I was not expecting a main feature, but a short section within the guide mentioning key pro and cons and for what type of customers it could be more suited .. 

it is in their money making interest (as an MSE site) to attract a wider audience that in turn will attract more advertising money.

I think there’s a difference between the website and the forum.  I don’t think I have ever seen an article about wealth management/private banking on the website, but it is discussed on the forums from time to time.

Sandtree

lr1277 said:

I am somewhat confused by this promotion of Amex on MSE. I was under the impression that Amex charged higher fees to retailers than Visa/Mastercard. If this is the case, if more people spend on Amex, surely the retailers take this into account and put up prices for everybody. How is that Moneysaving?

I understand the individual Amex holder may do well out of having an Amex card but how about eveyone else?

Perhaps MSE could write an article about the fees charged by Visa/Mastercard/Amex? I understand that costs are based on the agreement the retailer has with Visa/Mastercard/Amex, so the likes of a big supermarket will get lower fees than the corner shop based on the number and value of transactions put through their tills.

But an article would be useful to me to help decide if I should switch to Amex.

Well that depends, if you are a small retailer and so using solutions like Zettle then there is no fee difference. If you are a large retailer the difference is likely to be 0.1% so 1p for every £10 spent. Plus that assumes you are talking about the basic Visa/Mastercard because if you look at the likes of World Mastercard or World Elite Mastercard then they can be more expensive than AmEx

If you see older AmEx marketing to retailers you'd see that they play on the fact that the average transaction from their customers are higher than other card networks  and so yes you may pay slightly more on transaction fee but you are making more high value sales but for that you really need to consider if a customer will select the store to use based on if they accept AmEx or not

WillPS said:

Marchitiello said:

Platinum Chargecard has esclusive statement credit offers that often covers more then half of the annual fee. 

£50 Harvey Nicks credit every 6 months (can't be stacked)
£10 Addison Lee credit per month (which involves using Addison Lee so will almost never be a true saving)
£100 to use at a range of restaurants which were almost all in London.

Platinum is an interesting product but I really don't see how one might come to the conclusion that is could be offered to the masses as a money saving product.

BA PP is a less interesting product and only makes sense if you are a hardcore Avios collector looking to get maximal value from premium redemptions. That isn't a money saving activity. The Nectar card earns 1.25 Avios per £, costs £25 (0 in year 1) - if you value an Avios at 1p, you would have to spend £170,000 per year to cover the £425 difference in annual fee.

I dont think AmEx would ever want it to become a mass market product but it can fit into the mass-affluent category fairly easily for people who travel a fair amount. I know a few who were previously buying Priority Pass and so if you take that saving off the price plus the frequent stackable promos like those mentioned and others then it does potentially become a free product

On the BA PP you are forgetting the any class companion voucher which halves the number of avios for a couple to travel and so makes great sense if you are looking at an avios First booking to far east, australia etc 

WillPS

WillPS said:

Marchitiello said:

Platinum Chargecard has esclusive statement credit offers that often covers more then half of the annual fee. 

£50 Harvey Nicks credit every 6 months (can't be stacked)
£10 Addison Lee credit per month (which involves using Addison Lee so will almost never be a true saving)
£100 to use at a range of restaurants which were almost all in London.

Platinum is an interesting product but I really don't see how one might come to the conclusion that is could be offered to the masses as a money saving product.

BA PP is a less interesting product and only makes sense if you are a hardcore Avios collector looking to get maximal value from premium redemptions. That isn't a money saving activity. The Nectar card earns 1.25 Avios per £, costs £25 (0 in year 1) - if you value an Avios at 1p, you would have to spend £170,000 per year to cover the £425 difference in annual fee.

I dont think AmEx would ever want it to become a mass market product but it can fit into the mass-affluent category fairly easily for people who travel a fair amount. I know a few who were previously buying Priority Pass and so if you take that saving off the price plus the frequent stackable promos like those mentioned and others then it does potentially become a free product

On the BA PP you are forgetting the any class companion voucher which halves the number of avios for a couple to travel and so makes great sense if you are looking at an avios First booking to far east, australia etc 

Would you say MSE is a 'mass-affluent' focussed website?

Would you say that spending £10k on a credit card in order to get a benefit that only has real value if you have a large amount of Avios (which in itself involves spending 5/6 figure sums) is the sort of thing a 'Money Saving' website should push forward to the great unwashed as something they should consider?

I currently hold a BAPP and I've had Platinum in the past. I know the value of both but I don't think real money saving potential can be extracted without burning through intro bonuses as quickly as possible and dumping the card - which are in themselves a troublesome suggestion for a website that also preaches living within ones means and credit report refinement as important. Even Avios die hards will usually concede that collecting is more about accessing something you otherwise wouldn't rather than saving money on what you'd do anyway.

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

Se1Lad

WillPS said:

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

why can’t MSE do both?

Marchitiello

I know you were answering to user “Sandtree” but in doing that talked about spending £10k so to get a benefit, which reads that you purposely spent £10k you may otherwise not done, which is not the point. You would simply put your normal spending through Amex and get a great benefit from it. Never like now Amex is widely accept it (even my local barber has started to accept it through one of those fintech system called Stripe, and I have even seen it being accept it at Market Stalls in Borough Market for example). So let’s for example assume you put exactly £10k per year through Amex BAPP of your normal spending. That will generate by itself 15,000 Avios and a 2 for 1 voucher. So for £250 you have 15,000 Avios and a companion ticket. If you had put the same amount through a Chase DC for example, you would only have made £100. As you know, it is not simple as that as BAPP customers may have higher spending anyway and generate much more Avios through many channels (I for example do through Business Capital On Tap Card, Barclays Avios Rewards, Nectar, Amex Bonuses, Reward for Thoughts, HSBC, RBS Rewards, etc) so for me that £250 give me at least a £1000 value on average though flights that I would indeed take. 

Again, an Amex guide would have been more complete with at least a small section explaining those products, probably with a warning that these were not for everyone, but for a number of people would represent a great way to benefit from it. 

WillPS

Se1Lad said:

WillPS said:

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

why can’t MSE do both?

It'd be a choice for MSE, but the point is they don't.

If I were to speculate, I would suggest that MSE have an editorial standpoint of only covering products which could save money for a typical mass market audience. Offering up products which are highly unlikely to save an average customer anything and are actually designed to drive spend with high cost service providers is not that.

Marchitiello said:

I know you were answering to user “Sandtree” but in doing that talked about spending £10k so to get a benefit, which reads that you purposely spent £10k you may otherwise not done, which is not the point. You would simply put your normal spending through Amex and get a great benefit from it. Never like now Amex is widely accept it (even my local barber has started to accept it through one of those fintech system called Stripe, and I have even seen it being accept it at Market Stalls in Borough Market for example). So let’s for example assume you put exactly £10k per year through Amex BAPP of your normal spending. That will generate by itself 15,000 Avios and a 2 for 1 voucher. So for £250 you have 15,000 Avios and a companion ticket. If you had put the same amount through a Chase DC for example, you would only have made £100. As you know, it is not simple as that as BAPP customers may have higher spending anyway and generate much more Avios through many channels (I for example do through Business Capital On Tap Card, Barclays Avios Rewards, Nectar, Amex Bonuses, Reward for Thoughts, HSBC, RBS Rewards, etc) so for me that £250 give me at least a £1000 value on average though flights that I would indeed take. 

Again, an Amex guide would have been more complete with at least a small section explaining those products, probably with a warning that these were not for everyone, but for a number of people would represent a great way to benefit from it. 

My point is that spending £10k pa already at places where Amex can be used is a pretty huge assumption for a typical mass-market customer. That's on top of spending £450 and whatever other spend is needed to generate sufficient avios to get real value from a companion voucher (15,000 Avios alone won't cut it).

To be able to get good value you're talking about spending amounts similar to the average salary.

It's niche.

Se1Lad

WillPS said:

Se1Lad said:

WillPS said:

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

why can’t MSE do both?

It'd be a choice for MSE, but the point is they don't.

If I were to speculate, I would suggest that MSE have an editorial standpoint of only covering products which could save money for a typical mass market audience. Offering up products which are highly unlikely to save an average customer anything and are actually designed to drive spend with high cost service providers is not that.

Marchitiello said:

I know you were answering to user “Sandtree” but in doing that talked about spending £10k so to get a benefit, which reads that you purposely spent £10k you may otherwise not done, which is not the point. You would simply put your normal spending through Amex and get a great benefit from it. Never like now Amex is widely accept it (even my local barber has started to accept it through one of those fintech system called Stripe, and I have even seen it being accept it at Market Stalls in Borough Market for example). So let’s for example assume you put exactly £10k per year through Amex BAPP of your normal spending. That will generate by itself 15,000 Avios and a 2 for 1 voucher. So for £250 you have 15,000 Avios and a companion ticket. If you had put the same amount through a Chase DC for example, you would only have made £100. As you know, it is not simple as that as BAPP customers may have higher spending anyway and generate much more Avios through many channels (I for example do through Business Capital On Tap Card, Barclays Avios Rewards, Nectar, Amex Bonuses, Reward for Thoughts, HSBC, RBS Rewards, etc) so for me that £250 give me at least a £1000 value on average though flights that I would indeed take. 

Again, an Amex guide would have been more complete with at least a small section explaining those products, probably with a warning that these were not for everyone, but for a number of people would represent a great way to benefit from it. 

My point is that spending £10k pa already at places where Amex can be used is a pretty huge assumption for a typical mass-market customer. That's on top of spending £450 and whatever other spend is needed to generate sufficient avios to get real value from a companion voucher (15,000 Avios alone won't cut it).

To be able to get good value you're talking about spending amounts similar to the average salary.

It's niche.

Sorry I should have been more clear - I meant why can’t the MSE forum do both?

WillPS

Se1Lad said:

WillPS said:

Se1Lad said:

WillPS said:

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

why can’t MSE do both?

It'd be a choice for MSE, but the point is they don't.

If I were to speculate, I would suggest that MSE have an editorial standpoint of only covering products which could save money for a typical mass market audience. Offering up products which are highly unlikely to save an average customer anything and are actually designed to drive spend with high cost service providers is not that.

Marchitiello said:

I know you were answering to user “Sandtree” but in doing that talked about spending £10k so to get a benefit, which reads that you purposely spent £10k you may otherwise not done, which is not the point. You would simply put your normal spending through Amex and get a great benefit from it. Never like now Amex is widely accept it (even my local barber has started to accept it through one of those fintech system called Stripe, and I have even seen it being accept it at Market Stalls in Borough Market for example). So let’s for example assume you put exactly £10k per year through Amex BAPP of your normal spending. That will generate by itself 15,000 Avios and a 2 for 1 voucher. So for £250 you have 15,000 Avios and a companion ticket. If you had put the same amount through a Chase DC for example, you would only have made £100. As you know, it is not simple as that as BAPP customers may have higher spending anyway and generate much more Avios through many channels (I for example do through Business Capital On Tap Card, Barclays Avios Rewards, Nectar, Amex Bonuses, Reward for Thoughts, HSBC, RBS Rewards, etc) so for me that £250 give me at least a £1000 value on average though flights that I would indeed take. 

Again, an Amex guide would have been more complete with at least a small section explaining those products, probably with a warning that these were not for everyone, but for a number of people would represent a great way to benefit from it. 

My point is that spending £10k pa already at places where Amex can be used is a pretty huge assumption for a typical mass-market customer. That's on top of spending £450 and whatever other spend is needed to generate sufficient avios to get real value from a companion voucher (15,000 Avios alone won't cut it).

To be able to get good value you're talking about spending amounts similar to the average salary.

It's niche.

Sorry I should have been more clear - I meant why can’t the MSE forum do both?

I would argue there's a place for discussion of everything however niche in here.

Se1Lad

WillPS said:

Se1Lad said:

WillPS said:

Se1Lad said:

WillPS said:

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

why can’t MSE do both?

It'd be a choice for MSE, but the point is they don't.

If I were to speculate, I would suggest that MSE have an editorial standpoint of only covering products which could save money for a typical mass market audience. Offering up products which are highly unlikely to save an average customer anything and are actually designed to drive spend with high cost service providers is not that.

Marchitiello said:

I know you were answering to user “Sandtree” but in doing that talked about spending £10k so to get a benefit, which reads that you purposely spent £10k you may otherwise not done, which is not the point. You would simply put your normal spending through Amex and get a great benefit from it. Never like now Amex is widely accept it (even my local barber has started to accept it through one of those fintech system called Stripe, and I have even seen it being accept it at Market Stalls in Borough Market for example). So let’s for example assume you put exactly £10k per year through Amex BAPP of your normal spending. That will generate by itself 15,000 Avios and a 2 for 1 voucher. So for £250 you have 15,000 Avios and a companion ticket. If you had put the same amount through a Chase DC for example, you would only have made £100. As you know, it is not simple as that as BAPP customers may have higher spending anyway and generate much more Avios through many channels (I for example do through Business Capital On Tap Card, Barclays Avios Rewards, Nectar, Amex Bonuses, Reward for Thoughts, HSBC, RBS Rewards, etc) so for me that £250 give me at least a £1000 value on average though flights that I would indeed take. 

Again, an Amex guide would have been more complete with at least a small section explaining those products, probably with a warning that these were not for everyone, but for a number of people would represent a great way to benefit from it. 

My point is that spending £10k pa already at places where Amex can be used is a pretty huge assumption for a typical mass-market customer. That's on top of spending £450 and whatever other spend is needed to generate sufficient avios to get real value from a companion voucher (15,000 Avios alone won't cut it).

To be able to get good value you're talking about spending amounts similar to the average salary.

It's niche.

Sorry I should have been more clear - I meant why can’t the MSE forum do both?

I would argue there's a place for discussion of everything however niche in here.

We are in agreement then

Sandtree

WillPS said:

WillPS said:

Marchitiello said:

Platinum Chargecard has esclusive statement credit offers that often covers more then half of the annual fee. 

£50 Harvey Nicks credit every 6 months (can't be stacked)
£10 Addison Lee credit per month (which involves using Addison Lee so will almost never be a true saving)
£100 to use at a range of restaurants which were almost all in London.

Platinum is an interesting product but I really don't see how one might come to the conclusion that is could be offered to the masses as a money saving product.

BA PP is a less interesting product and only makes sense if you are a hardcore Avios collector looking to get maximal value from premium redemptions. That isn't a money saving activity. The Nectar card earns 1.25 Avios per £, costs £25 (0 in year 1) - if you value an Avios at 1p, you would have to spend £170,000 per year to cover the £425 difference in annual fee.

I dont think AmEx would ever want it to become a mass market product but it can fit into the mass-affluent category fairly easily for people who travel a fair amount. I know a few who were previously buying Priority Pass and so if you take that saving off the price plus the frequent stackable promos like those mentioned and others then it does potentially become a free product

On the BA PP you are forgetting the any class companion voucher which halves the number of avios for a couple to travel and so makes great sense if you are looking at an avios First booking to far east, australia etc 

Would you say MSE is a 'mass-affluent' focussed website?

Would you say that spending £10k on a credit card in order to get a benefit that only has real value if you have a large amount of Avios (which in itself involves spending 5/6 figure sums) is the sort of thing a 'Money Saving' website should push forward to the great unwashed as something they should consider?

I currently hold a BAPP and I've had Platinum in the past. I know the value of both but I don't think real money saving potential can be extracted without burning through intro bonuses as quickly as possible and dumping the card - which are in themselves a troublesome suggestion for a website that also preaches living within ones means and credit report refinement as important. Even Avios die hards will usually concede that collecting is more about accessing something you otherwise wouldn't rather than saving money on what you'd do anyway.

There are specialist websites for extracting max value from Amex cards, like Head for Points.

There's also a place for a mass-market focussed website like MSE to explain how an average person can make a little back with sensible spending.

Not focused however that doesnt mean it should exclude all content on the topic either... its coverage should just be proportional to its readership and without doubt there are higher earners on the site given the number of discussions in Tax Cutting about avoiding higher, additional rate tax and erosion of personal allowance. 

Realistically those in middle and upper earnings probably are more "money saving" as they tend to be more financially astute and can realistically switch to 0% credit cards, have the need for fee free travel cards etc whereas your "great unwashed" often are often just getting by and so 0% cards are going to be declines and fees for overseas travel would be a nice problem to have.

The key to any rewards card isnt about buying more to get the rewards but moving your existing spending onto the cards that get you the rewards. Many people's household spending is £10k or more so can qualify for the companion voucher.

Its not so much that using Avios isnt money saving, it normally is, but its just difficult to judge how much money saving you've done. So for example recently had an overseas trip using Avios travelling Business. The amount of cash I paid was about £250pp less than the price of an economy ticket and so I certainly saved that. I would struggle to say I saved the circa £4,000 difference from a cash business class ticket because I wouldnt have paid that. The answer is somewhere between the two but its a bit of a pointless debate to say where it is.