How to live without heating - save £000s

bob2302

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

Ildhund said:

wrf12345 said:

... empty and unheated houses can end up with a lot of mould ...

I'm aware of some of the dangers of cold, damp conditions indoors. What I don't understand is why we're told it feels colder if the humidity is high in Lancashire, but hotter in Louisiana.

At low temperatures, high humidity tends to make clothing moist and therefore reduces its insulating properties. 

This seems implausible to me - unless one is actually soaking the clothes through sweating. The obvious explanation is the increased volumetric heat capacity. I think it is small though, and unlikely to be noticed if wearing the right cloths. 

Increasing heat capacity creates an initial sink into which heat must flow, but once clothing has been on for a few minutes, it is heat transfer to the external environment rather than heat capacity that matters. I

I suspect  that  it's mostly about wind chill, which I would expect to be linear in volumetric heat capacity. 

Indoors, if it's to do with reduced insulation then the like of hertslad and me would notice it most. If it's heat capacity we'd notice it least. 

The idea that you have a stable volume of warm air inside your clothes presupposes that you dressed to achieve that - lots of people don't wear long underwear, or an adequately dense weave.

QrizB

QrizB said:

I'm a (temporary and involuntary) convert to this lifestyle as my gas boiler has stopped, er, boiling

Fortunately it's only October and still mild, plus I've got an immersion heater for hot water.

I am no longer living without heating.

The nice man from BOXT arrived this morning and fitted a new Vaillant plus a Hive Mini, so hopefully I'm good for another decade or two.

masonic

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

Ildhund said:

wrf12345 said:

... empty and unheated houses can end up with a lot of mould ...

I'm aware of some of the dangers of cold, damp conditions indoors. What I don't understand is why we're told it feels colder if the humidity is high in Lancashire, but hotter in Louisiana.

At low temperatures, high humidity tends to make clothing moist and therefore reduces its insulating properties. 

This seems implausible to me - unless one is actually soaking the clothes through sweating. The obvious explanation is the increased volumetric heat capacity. I think it is small though, and unlikely to be noticed if wearing the right cloths. 

Increasing heat capacity creates an initial sink into which heat must flow, but once clothing has been on for a few minutes, it is heat transfer to the external environment rather than heat capacity that matters. I

I suspect  that  it's mostly about wind chill, which I would expect to be linear in volumetric heat capacity. 
Indoors, if it's to do with reduced insulation then the like of hertslad and me would notice it most. If it's heat capacity we'd notice it least. 
The idea that you have a stable volume of warm air inside your clothes presupposes that you dressed to achieve that - lots of people don't wear long underwear, or an adequately dense weave.

Oh, so you think it's the heat capacity of the air that's increasing due to the dissolved water vapour, and that the affected individuals are just exposing themselves to cold air currents through poorly insulating clothes. The prior discussion was about the indoor environment where there'd be no wind-chill, so I thought you meant heat capacity of the clothing.

Eldi_Dos

QrizB said:

QrizB said:

I'm a (temporary and involuntary) convert to this lifestyle as my gas boiler has stopped, er, boiling

Fortunately it's only October and still mild, plus I've got an immersion heater for hot water.

I am no longer living without heating.

The nice man from BOXT arrived this morning and fitted a new Vaillant plus a Hive Mini, so hopefully I'm good for another decade or two.

Welcome back to civilisation, not tempted to try the no heating experience for a few weeks ?

Mini Hive looks fun, I'm sure you will have a lot trials seeing what works for you.The sophistication of modern heating controls was a real eyeopener for me and greatly adds to the comfort of the house.

Scot_39

silverwhistle said:

Just a heads up for those that may be interested: Lidl have warm winter clothing on sale next Thursday including base layers. Prices are good for those of you who don't wash them for the winter season, or maybe I misread some of the comments above..;-)

Not a big selection in my local Lidl - did manage to get a fully polyester thermals set for 3.99+5.99 plus a 1/3rd mix cotton top - for 4.99.  

Not tried - but got last years in any case if dont like.

They also had jumpers and other winter tops / fleeces for women / men etc.

They had some of the more expensive more exercise type ones as well - with more lycra type styling etc - saw the kids and womans as right next to the cheap mens - the mens ?  - but as the 2 sets from last year still in decent nick - I didn't really look for them.

bob2302

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

Ildhund said:

wrf12345 said:

... empty and unheated houses can end up with a lot of mould ...

I'm aware of some of the dangers of cold, damp conditions indoors. What I don't understand is why we're told it feels colder if the humidity is high in Lancashire, but hotter in Louisiana.

At low temperatures, high humidity tends to make clothing moist and therefore reduces its insulating properties. 

This seems implausible to me - unless one is actually soaking the clothes through sweating. The obvious explanation is the increased volumetric heat capacity. I think it is small though, and unlikely to be noticed if wearing the right cloths. 

Increasing heat capacity creates an initial sink into which heat must flow, but once clothing has been on for a few minutes, it is heat transfer to the external environment rather than heat capacity that matters. I

I suspect  that  it's mostly about wind chill, which I would expect to be linear in volumetric heat capacity. 
Indoors, if it's to do with reduced insulation then the like of hertslad and me would notice it most. If it's heat capacity we'd notice it least. 
The idea that you have a stable volume of warm air inside your clothes presupposes that you dressed to achieve that - lots of people don't wear long underwear, or an adequately dense weave.

Oh, so you think it's the heat capacity of the air that's increasing due to the dissolved water vapour, and that the affected individuals are just exposing themselves to cold air currents through poorly insulating clothes. The prior discussion was about the indoor environment where there'd be no wind-chill, so I thought you meant heat capacity of the clothing.

I was just giving an explanation for the apparent paradox. People on TV claiming that humidity makes you colder in winter don't have the context of this thread. If it is real then the volumetric heat capacity seem the most likely explanation to me. It could just be an old wives' tale through.

masonic

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

Ildhund said:

wrf12345 said:

... empty and unheated houses can end up with a lot of mould ...

I'm aware of some of the dangers of cold, damp conditions indoors. What I don't understand is why we're told it feels colder if the humidity is high in Lancashire, but hotter in Louisiana.

At low temperatures, high humidity tends to make clothing moist and therefore reduces its insulating properties. 

This seems implausible to me - unless one is actually soaking the clothes through sweating. The obvious explanation is the increased volumetric heat capacity. I think it is small though, and unlikely to be noticed if wearing the right cloths. 

Increasing heat capacity creates an initial sink into which heat must flow, but once clothing has been on for a few minutes, it is heat transfer to the external environment rather than heat capacity that matters. I

I suspect  that  it's mostly about wind chill, which I would expect to be linear in volumetric heat capacity. 
Indoors, if it's to do with reduced insulation then the like of hertslad and me would notice it most. If it's heat capacity we'd notice it least. 
The idea that you have a stable volume of warm air inside your clothes presupposes that you dressed to achieve that - lots of people don't wear long underwear, or an adequately dense weave.

Oh, so you think it's the heat capacity of the air that's increasing due to the dissolved water vapour, and that the affected individuals are just exposing themselves to cold air currents through poorly insulating clothes. The prior discussion was about the indoor environment where there'd be no wind-chill, so I thought you meant heat capacity of the clothing.

I was just giving an explanation for the apparent paradox. People on TV claiming that humidity makes you colder in winter don't have the context of this thread. If it is real then the volumetric heat capacity seem the most likely explanation to me. It could just be an old wives' tale through.

The difference in heat capacity or thermal conductivity of moist vs dry air at low temperatures seems pretty negligible according to these charts (and since heat capacity is per kg in the first chart, density also needs to be considered for a volumetric conversion).

https://www.qats.com/Qpedia-Article/Qpedia_Nov08_Estimating_the_Effect_of_Moist_Air_on_Natural_Convection_Heat_Transfer

If you're at 0-10 C, those numbers are essentially identical and there would be no perceptible effect coming from the air. The only place left for it to come from is the thermal conductivity of the clothing. If there is any real effect at all. Damp clothing certainly does have increased thermal conductivity, but the question is whether a film of moisture adsorbed from air at high RH would be enough to observe this effect.

bob2302

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

bob2302 said:

masonic said:

Ildhund said:

wrf12345 said:

... empty and unheated houses can end up with a lot of mould ...

I'm aware of some of the dangers of cold, damp conditions indoors. What I don't understand is why we're told it feels colder if the humidity is high in Lancashire, but hotter in Louisiana.

At low temperatures, high humidity tends to make clothing moist and therefore reduces its insulating properties. 

This seems implausible to me - unless one is actually soaking the clothes through sweating. The obvious explanation is the increased volumetric heat capacity. I think it is small though, and unlikely to be noticed if wearing the right cloths. 

Increasing heat capacity creates an initial sink into which heat must flow, but once clothing has been on for a few minutes, it is heat transfer to the external environment rather than heat capacity that matters. I

I suspect  that  it's mostly about wind chill, which I would expect to be linear in volumetric heat capacity. 
Indoors, if it's to do with reduced insulation then the like of hertslad and me would notice it most. If it's heat capacity we'd notice it least. 
The idea that you have a stable volume of warm air inside your clothes presupposes that you dressed to achieve that - lots of people don't wear long underwear, or an adequately dense weave.

Oh, so you think it's the heat capacity of the air that's increasing due to the dissolved water vapour, and that the affected individuals are just exposing themselves to cold air currents through poorly insulating clothes. The prior discussion was about the indoor environment where there'd be no wind-chill, so I thought you meant heat capacity of the clothing.

I was just giving an explanation for the apparent paradox. People on TV claiming that humidity makes you colder in winter don't have the context of this thread. If it is real then the volumetric heat capacity seem the most likely explanation to me. It could just be an old wives' tale through.

The difference in heat capacity or thermal conductivity of moist vs dry air at low temperatures seems pretty negligible according to these charts (and since heat capacity is per kg in the first chart, density also needs to be considered for a volumetric conversion).

https://www.qats.com/Qpedia-Article/Qpedia_Nov08_Estimating_the_Effect_of_Moist_Air_on_Natural_Convection_Heat_Transfer

If you're at 0-10 C, those numbers are essentially identical and there would be no perceptible effect coming from the air. The only place left for it to come from is the thermal conductivity of the clothing. If there is any real effect at all. Damp clothing certainly does have increased thermal conductivity, but the question is whether a film of moisture adsorbed from air at high RH would be enough to observe this effect.

It looks like it an old wives' tale to me.

QrizB

brewerdave said:

QrizB said:

QrizB said:

I'm a (temporary and involuntary) convert to this lifestyle as my gas boiler has stopped, er, boiling

Fortunately it's only October and still mild, plus I've got an immersion heater for hot water.

I am no longer living without heating.

The nice man from BOXT arrived this morning and fitted a new Vaillant plus a Hive Mini, so hopefully I'm good for another decade or two.

Not if mad Ed Milliband has his way !

If you're aware of a published date for switching off the UK natural gas network, please share it

QrizB

Scot_39 said:

You dont have to shut off the natural gas network to stop GCH boiler installations.

That's both true and unrelated to my question.