Child tax credit overpayment notice from 14 years ago!

lammy_pie

Hi,
I have received a letter from HMRC saying I owe £700 in child tax credits because I was overpaid 14 years ago in 2008.

Apparently they started to take the money off subsequent tax credit payments but then me and my partner split up and they said they don’t then take it off individuals’ payments. 

They claim they sent a letter out telling us about this at the time but they haven’t been in touch since. I have no record of it. They say we can’t appeal it because it’s been too long. They are also refusing to give us any evidence as to why we were overpaid, they won’t send us any documentation to back up their claim. For all we know they could be making it up. 

Is there anything we can do here? It feels wrong that after 14 years they can just ask us for money without saying why other than “you were overpaid”.  

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. 

poppy12345

At the time you would have been sent and award notice with details of everything including any overpayments. You're not the only person they're catching up with because of overpayments, yes as far back as yourself.

You can make a SAR to HMRC and this will give you all the details you need. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hmrc-subject-access-request

You're outside the time to dispute it now.

Demanda

The point about some of these posts - including mine - is that a letter in 2021 was the first intimation of any claimed overpayment. It's like they're rummagin beind the sofa for any cash they can find!

Anyway, it's not possible to dispuate a claim you know nothing about, and there are too many people receiving the same demands out of the blue for this to be a coincidence. 

As you'll see from this (also posted in another thread) when I called DWP, they had no record of me and no records with my national insurance number! They either have a record and can provide details or they do not and are illegally demanding money, it cannot be both. (Schrodinger's Tax Credits?)

Here goes....

I've had the same demand, and sought legal advice, it's uncertain how best to challenge this because rules/departments have been changed in the years passed so I'll share my approach / timeline.

July 2021: First advised of "debt" in a letter, no details just an amount.

Called DWP, to request details, who said they had no file with my national insurance number or name.

Called Debt management, explained what DWP had said,

Someone called me back and said they'd forward details in a letter, instead they simply repeated demand for payment.

August 2021: repeated these steps.

September 2021: repeated calls, same response BUT an agent at DWP mentioned complaints process, so I wrote to the address provided as well as those published on the DWP/HMRC website simply asking for details of the claimed debt.

October 2021: repeated letters and ignored calls from the number. Wrote to HMRC complaints.

November 2021: repeated letters and ignored calls,

December 2021: repeated letters and ignored calls... they then wrote advising deducctions were to be made from my wages.

(Remember, I still have no details of what the debt is!)

January 2022: sought legal guidance, and rewrote letters with the wording less apologetic and more formal.

February 2022: my patience exhausted, decided that I'd call debt management. These calls are recorded, I advised that I was aware the calls are recorded and that's why I was calling and then READ OUT THE LETTERS, with all the dates that they'd been sent.  For the first time, I was given a date, well a year, 2013!

Also requested a transcript of the call, but there's apparently "a form" to be submitted for that.

This seems to have unstuck things although still don't have the information requested.

A manager from Debt Management called to say it has been referred to a "special advisor" whatever that is, and I should have a call within 48 hours. I asked if a hold would be placed on the letters and calls, but she wouldn't give a firm response.

(The next step is a subject access request, under GDPR... this is important, becasue they shouldn't have any records more than 6 years old, without good reason to hold them).

Good luck, their tactics are despicable and immoral, so I will challenge this as far as I have to... because I know I was not overpaid any tax credits. At the time I was a single parent working part-time, with a spreadsheet for every penny that came in or went out!

 

This is the letter sent to HMRC / DWP complaints this week,

feel free to copy/use/amend to your circumstances:

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

I received your letter claiming a debt to DWP, despite several requests, you have been unable to provide evidence of this claim. For the third and final time, I am writing to inform you that I do not know of any amount due.

By law, you should neither ignore nor disregard a claim that a debt is disputed and must stop making demands for payment without providing clear justification and/or evidence as to why the claim is not valid.

You must therefore

a) suspend or cease these demands;

b) respond to my complaint, sent in October 2020;

c) re-examine the dispute and

d) provide evidence of the investigation and of the debt claimed.

You have not ceased your collection activities whilst investigating a reasonably disrupted or queried debt, a method that is considered unfair and deceptive.

Furthermore, by continuing to make demands from me to make payment whilst ignoring/disregarding claims that my debts are disputed or settled, you are committing what amounts to psychological and/or physical harassment.

The result of this is that I insist you do not make contact with me regarding the above account without providing me with evidence regarding my liability.

I shall wait for your response confirming that the matter I have presented above is closed. If I do not receive such confirmation, I shall escalate these complaints.

I look forward to your response.

sammyjammy

Good luck with your demands, it really doesn't work like that.  The only people in DWP that would know anything about your overpayment is Debt Management as the debt is for tax credits which are managed by HMRC, DWP are just the collectors of the debt.

sheramber

From your first post the debt refers to when you were claiming as a couple, before you split up. When you split up you would move to a single claim leaving the joint debt unpaid. 

kaMelo

Demanda said:

(The next step is a subject access request, under GDPR... this is important, becasue they shouldn't have any records more than 6 years old, without good reason to hold them).

Demanding they stop contacting you or believing your data should not exist beyond six years really isn't going to work. They believe you owe them money, that in itself is enough reason to both contact you for repayment and to hold your data. Not to mention that HMRC are not bound by any limitations on how far back they can go to collect what they believe they are owed.

That's not to say that they shouldn't provide you with the information upon which they are relying in stating you owe them money, they should do so..  That's why a SAR is always a good thing to start with as they believe you owe it, you believe you don't. The SAR should clarify this for both parties, with this information you can then decide on how to proceed.

noitsnotme

sheramber said:

From your first post the debt refers to when you were claiming as a couple, before you split up. When you split up you would move to a single claim leaving the joint debt unpaid. 

There are two different posters with different situations.  The author of the long post above (Demanda) is not the OP (lammy_pie).

calcotti

noitsnotme said: There are two different posters with different situations.  

That’s why posting onto someone else’s thread gets confusing!

Demanda

My point is that they haven’t been able to provide *any* information to support their claim, it’s just a random number.  If they have it, they are obliged to provide information, otherwise the claim wouldn’t stand up in court. 

Eight letters and months of phone calls, got nowhere, so SAR is submitted, including a request for transcripts of calls last year.  

HMRC’s data retention and deletion policy is:
 “The default standard retention period for HMRC records is 6 years plus current, otherwise known as 6 years + 1. This is defined as 6 years after the last entry in a record followed by first review or destruction to be carried out in the additional current (+ 1) accounting year”

Any reason to keep the data, including a claim, leaves them having to answer why no contact until last year. If no valid claim, the records should have been deleted years ago. 

There’s something not right about how all these claims are surfacing now, and GDPR might help find out why.  

kaMelo

You're focusing on the wrong thing by keep mentioning GDPR, rather than argue about the alleged debt you're trying to argue on on a technicality that doesn't apply to HMRC. HMRC are an arm of HM Government responsible for the administration and collection of the UK taxes in accordance with the legislation. As such they are not bound by normal limitations and have different options available to collect what they believe is owed  They are not a private company and trying to compare HMRC to one by keep mentioning GDPR is pointless and will get you nowhere.

They believe you owe them money, that is enough reason to hold your data indefinitely and contact you about it  A SAR should give you the information they are using to claim you owe them money. If they can't produce the information they it is difficult to see how they can claim you owe them money. If they do produce the information but you disagree with it then you can argue your case. Focus on the facts, not some hypothetical technicality that does not apply.

Alice_Holt

Fully agree with kaMelo.

 Read through this explanation of the rights and responsibilities of the claimant, and those of HMRC to the TC claimant.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/970767/COP26-2021.pdf

  This is a useful guide to dealing with TC overpayment recoveries:
https://revenuebenefits.org.uk/tax-credits/guidance/how-to-deal-with-hmrc/challenging-overpayments/