Heating for the future - do I need to start saving now? Heat Pumps?

greenpanda

I live in a semi-detached Victorian 3 bed. I find my home warm but realistically I don't think it would be well insulated enough for a heat pump to work (we have secondary glazing, solid walls, insulation in the roof). I've been looking at what we would need to do for a heat pump to work and it looks like we'd need to remove the plaster, skirting, in built storage and do wall insulation (and likely pay for new storage as we will loose space in the room). Are we all going to have to start saving now for these massive changes? Or are there any other likely alternatives coming along?

QrizB

greenpanda said:

I live in a semi-detached Victorian 3 bed. I find my home warm but realistically I don't think it would be well insulated enough for a heat pump to work (we have secondary glazing, solid walls, insulation in the roof).

A heat pump is just a source of heat. If you have a well-insulated house and can heat it with 6kW you need a 6kW gas boiler or 6kW heat pump; if you have a poorly-insulated house and need 30kW you need a 30kW boiler or a 30kW heat pump.

Insulation will reduce the amount of heat required and will save energy whether you heat with gas, oil of electricity. There will however come a point where the cost of adding more insulation is greateer than the energy saving you'll achieve.

A fewf years ago, gas was 2.5p/kWh and electricity was 12.5p/kWh so the savings that could be achieved with insulation were realtively low. Come April, gas could be 7.5p/kWh and electricity 28p/kWh and the potential savings will be 2-3x larger.

ProDave

This is the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about.  WHO is going to pay to upgrade the insulation and air tightness in Britain's old and a lot of it poor housing stock?

Heat pumps are good at what they do, which is relatively low power relatively low temperature heat.  So in a modern well insulated house using low temperature under floor heating they work very well.

All the problem cases you read about are where someone expects to swap a gas boiler for a heat pump in an old house, and find the heat pump can't get the radiators hot enough and can't deliver enough heat to keep the house warm.  I fear we are going to see a lot of this as the "swap your boiler for a heat pump" brigade get going in full swing.

Even if they work, at the moment they WILL cost more to run than gas.  But if gas carries on rising faster than electricity that may change.

And I write this as a fan of heat pumps, but only done properly, and I fear nobody wants to do (or at least pay for) the work needed to old houses to really do it properly.

FreeBear

greenpanda said: (we have secondary glazing, solid walls, insulation in the roof). I've been looking at what we would need to do for a heat pump to work and it looks like we'd need to remove the plaster, skirting, in built storage and do wall insulation

You missed one - Insulate the ground floor, which means lifting floorboards.

External wall insulation can work on some buildings if done properly and attention is paid to the finishing detail. Unfortunately, you destroy the exterior character of the property.

[Deleted User]

FreeBear said:

greenpanda said: (we have secondary glazing, solid walls, insulation in the roof). I've been looking at what we would need to do for a heat pump to work and it looks like we'd need to remove the plaster, skirting, in built storage and do wall insulation

You missed one - Insulate the ground floor, which means lifting floorboards.

External wall insulation can work on some buildings if done properly and attention is paid to the finishing detail. Unfortunately, you destroy the exterior character of the property.

And the possibility of a 3 phase supply……

greenpanda

Thanks for the replies, that's a LOT of work that needs doing. The new builds near us are having gas central heating put in which seems a massive shame if they are eventually going to have to do heat pumps too...

tacpot12

It is would be better to make these changes yourself as soon as you are able to, rather than waiting to see if there will be any help from the public purse. Realistically, public funds are going to be spent on resolving the same issues within the public housing stock.

Heat pumps will come down in price as they become more of a main stream product, but they are not going to save you money, and they will cost you more that you are currently paying to heat your home unless you insulate. 

With correctly sized radiators and insulation, a heat-pump can heat your home to comfortable temperatures at no greater cost than your current heating system. Remember, the aim of installing heat-pumps is not to save money but to stop us buring gas as doing so creates carbon dioxide, and carbon dioxide is the primary greenhouse gas.    

Verdigris

One thing that has changed is that propane (R290) is now allowed as a refrigerant, in ASHPs. It has several advantages; you can achieve higher flow temperatrures (up to 75 degrees, so no need for an immersion heater for legionella control); better SCOP than HFC refrigerants; very low greenhouse gas impact, in the event of a leak.

The only downside is flammability. Extra care must be taken to ensure leaking refrigerant can't get trapped and create an explosion risk. As the unit is outside, this isn't very onerous.

ProDave

greenpanda said:

Thanks for the replies, that's a LOT of work that needs doing. The new builds near us are having gas central heating put in which seems a massive shame if they are eventually going to have to do heat pumps too...

I keep on saying this.  I have just self built a low energy house heated by a small heat pump.  It is NOT difficult to build a good well insulated air tight house but it needs attention to detail.  We still have a mentality of mass market house builders that throw houses up as cheap as possible and do the minimum they have to to scrape through building regulations and then sell them for a fortune.  The only way this is going to change is if building regulations tighten and are properly enforced then the cheap house builders will have to improve.

BikingBud

ProDave said:

greenpanda said:

Thanks for the replies, that's a LOT of work that needs doing. The new builds near us are having gas central heating put in which seems a massive shame if they are eventually going to have to do heat pumps too...

I keep on saying this.  I have just self built a low energy house heated by a small heat pump.  It is NOT difficult to build a good well insulated air tight house but it needs attention to detail.  We still have a mentality of mass market house builders that throw houses up as cheap as possible and do the minimum they have to to scrape through building regulations and then sell them for a fortune.  The only way this is going to change is if building regulations tighten and are properly enforced then the cheap house builders will have to improve.

But are they really cheaper or is it just that they are poorly designed and constructed?

Is it not the case that if we take a holistic through life perspective rather than just profiteering the cost of an eco house is lower?

Who is really going to force the hand and get the necessary changes to the regulations when the large builders have such presence and proximity to the power?

FreeBear

tacpot12 said: It is would be better to make these changes yourself as soon as you are able to, rather than waiting to see if there will be any help from the public purse.

If the last scheme was anything to go by, it was mired in mismanagement and could only be taken up by a small number of households. Chances are, the next scheme will be a rehash of the Green Deal where loans are clawed back though the energy bills at a pretty hefty interest rate. On top of that, you'd probably have to pay a good chunk of money for a "survey" to see what measures you might qualify for.

If you are any good at DIY, you'd be much better off doing the bulk of the work yourself.