End of Tenancy Deposit Dispute & unclear Outstanding Utility Bill

Schwarzwald

Seeking opinions and advise on a classic end of tenancy deposit dispute situation, but including one probably slightly unconventional item …

 

Just bought property so moved out of my rented accommodation in London after nearly 7 years.

It was a new build when I moved in and I was the first tenant living in the flat.

Over the entire time I paid rent as agreed each month in full, we never had any problems. One year upon renewal, we agreed the rent to go up, sometimes we agreed it to go down. I would describe myself as a very respectful tenant, who considered the flat his temporary and rented home, but I took great care of the property IMHO.

With every new build there were teething issues at the beginning and through the tenancy, but I was more interested in getting things fixed and resolved than being a painful complaining tenant.

 As a matter of reference, over the entire 7 years I think I had asked less than 5 times for any works, replacements, etc. and these primarily due to two leaks from above and similar items.

I vacated the property more than 3 weeks ago in early January.

It took the letting agent nearly two weeks to produce the check-out report, also longer than agreed in the tenancy agreement (10 days).

 

Following situation has now arisen:

1. Deposit: approx. £2k

I had the property cleaned by a cleaning service, total of c.10 man hours for a 2-bdr flat. Tenancy agreement does not require a professional cleaning and upon leaving I was v happy with the result even thinking that the flat literally looked similar to day 1 when I moved in.

The Letting Agent has now produced a very detailed 60-page (!) check-out report and is comparing it to a far less detailed 10-page inventory/move-in report.

They produced a list of approx. 10 deduction items totalling approx. £800. 8-9 of these items are total non-sense IMO, including “splash marks over the cooker” and “stain marks over the extractor hood” in the kitchen. I mean I cooked there for 7 years, sure there are some stains …. and the tenancy agreement does not require me to repaint the flat.

 As the oven seemed to be missed out by the cleaning service, I told them I would accept this one as the only shortcoming and agree to a £200 deduction to close matters out.

 The letting agent has gone silent for the last 10 days and I have now set them a deadline for Friday, proposing to take it to the deposit dispute scheme otherwise.

 This is more a matter of principle topic to me, I am quite annoyed by their request and the poor communication and feel unfairly treated.

 Question 1: if we cant settle this amicably, how do deposit dispute case examiners look at these items?

 

 2. Hot Water Bill: approx. £2k

This one is slightly more tricky.

Upon commencing my tenancy, I was told (in writing) by the Letting Agent that I don’t need to register for hot water, instead the Letting Agent will invoice me periodically.

So I didn’t open an account with the hot water provider and as time went on and no bill was ever sent, it seemed we all forgot about that.

Over the years I kept receiving letters from a utility company addressed to the LL. Initially I returned them unopened to the utility company, as they kept coming, I then forwarded them unopened to the Letting Agent. But they kept coming.

Last year and annoyed by still receiving them - I tactically unwise – finally opened one, saw that the utility company is chasing for payment and felt it was the morally right thing to do to inform the Letting Agent.

They woke up to the fact that they forgot to invoice the hot water and asked me to settle the outstanding amounts as I used it.

Already knowing I will move out soon, I dragged my feet a bit and pushed back as I wanted to first see how they go about the deposit and potentially use the hot water bill as a negotiation chip.

As they now acting unreasonable IMO when it comes to the deposit, I am rethinking my position on the water bill. While morally i agree that I used the water and would typically agree to settle it, I would be interested to hear what the legal position is.

• The utility bill is not on my name, it is in the LL’s name.
• I never had a contractual relationship with the utility provider.
• Until today, the Letting Agent has never sent me a formal invoice.
• As of today, there is no more contractual relationship between me and the LL/Letting Agent , so I am not sure whether they could still send me a bill after the tenancy ended?
• The tenancy agreement states that [the deposit can be used for] “any unpaid accounts … for utilities or water … for which the tenant is liable.”

 Question 2: Am I liable for a bill with a utility provider that I never had a contractual relationship with?
I am aware debt can be asked for for something like 6 years, but it simply isn't in my name ...

Again, from a substance perspective I am not disputing that I probably should have paid that bill in the first place, but why should I do the Letting Agent's job and remind them to send me an invoice? that's not my role to play, and as they are acting unreasonable on the deposit, why should I be the one acting reasonable on the Utility Bill? 

Thank you 

 

Slithery

Schwarzwald said:

It took the letting agent nearly two weeks to produce the check-out report, also longer than agreed in the tenancy agreement (10 days).

Are you sure that's what it said? The usual wording is for the LL to return any outstanding deposit within 10 days from when any deductions have been agreed. That hasn't happened yet.

Schwarzwald said:

The Letting Agent has now produced a very detailed 60-page (!) check-out report and is comparing it to a far less detailed 10-page inventory/move-in report.

The check-in report isn't the only thing that can be used as evidence. The fact that it was a new-build and you were the first occupier is also evidence of the state of the property when you moved in.

Schwarzwald said:

They produced a list of approx. 10 deduction items totalling approx. £800. 8-9 of these items are total non-sense IMO, including “splash marks over the cooker” and “stain marks over the extractor hood” in the kitchen. I mean I cooked there for 7 years, sure there are some stains …. and the tenancy agreement does not require me to repaint the flat.

Impossible to tell if these are fair ware and tear or not without seeing them. I mean I cook in my kitchen every day as well but I wipe down any splashes when I'm finished

Schwarzwald said:

As the oven seemed to be missed out by the cleaning service, I told them I would accept this one as the only shortcoming and agree to a £200 deduction to close matters out.

Sounds fair.

Schwarzwald said:

The letting agent has gone silent for the last 10 days and I have now set them a deadline for Friday, proposing to take it to the deposit dispute scheme otherwise.

 This is more a matter of principle topic to me, I am quite annoyed by their request and the poor communication and feel unfairly treated.

 Question 1: if we cant settle this amicably, how do deposit dispute case examiners look at these items?

I mean they've been a bit slow but they've not done anything wrong yet. Why wait to put in a claim for your full deposit back? I've always done this on the day my tenancies have ended the second after I've given the keys back...

If it does go to arbitration then the deposit scheme will look at the evidence provided by both of you and make a decision.

Schwarzwald said:

Question 2: Am I liable for a bill with a utility provider that I never had a contractual relationship with?

I am aware debt can be asked for for something like 6 years, but it simply isn't in my name ...

Again, from a substance perspective I am not disputing that I probably should have paid that bill in the first place, but why should I do the Letting Agent's job and remind them to send me an invoice? that's not my role to play, and as they are acting unreasonable on the deposit, why should I be the one acting reasonable on the Utility Bill?

It's true that you have no contract with the utility company as the bill isn't in your name, but you do have a contract with the LL to reimburse them for the costs. If they brought this up with the deposit scheme then I'm pretty sure that they'd decide in the LL's favour and take the money from your deposit. Did you ever ask for an invoice?

Schwarzwald

Slithery said:

Schwarzwald said:

Question 2: Am I liable for a bill with a utility provider that I never had a contractual relationship with?

I am aware debt can be asked for for something like 6 years, but it simply isn't in my name ...

Again, from a substance perspective I am not disputing that I probably should have paid that bill in the first place, but why should I do the Letting Agent's job and remind them to send me an invoice? that's not my role to play, and as they are acting unreasonable on the deposit, why should I be the one acting reasonable on the Utility Bill?

It's true that you have no contract with the utility company as the bill isn't in your name, but you do have a contract with the LL to reimburse them for the costs. If they brought this up with the deposit scheme then I'm pretty sure that they'd decide in the LL's favour and take the money from your deposit. Did you ever ask for an invoice?

a) no I've never asked for an invoice as I don't think it is my responsibility to ask anyone to please send me a request so I can pay them. If they don't want money, I ain't chasing them.

b) Legally speaking I am not sure about that. I dont have a contract with the LL anymore. And if I had, i dont see that the tenancy agreement says i need to reimburse them. It only says that I need to pay them for "utility bills ... that I am liable for", but am I legally liable for a service that I have never had a (formal) supply relationship with? Legally speaking I am not sure it is such a clear cut case, but I might be wrong.

TripleH

Did you have sight of / sign this check-in report the letting agents are referring to?

Whilst accepting it was a new build, it is now 7 years old so some wear is not unreasonable. If the letting agents are citing a document you have never signed off on, point that out to the tenant deposit scheme. If you did see the checkin report point out you have lived there 7 years and argue reasonable wear and tear. Attach a copy of your dated original agreement if you have it.

Agree that you will be liable for hot water costs. This sounds like incompetence on the part of the letting agent but doesn't waive your liability unfortunately. If this is raised through the appropriate deposit scheme, point out that the letting agents never billed you bur that you are prepared to pay for any usage you have had but not the letting agent admin fees.

Mahsroh

On the check out report I agree it sounds like fair wear and tear and I would push back on these (with the exception of the oven which you've already conceded). 

I don't see your argument on the water bill though. You knew the intention was the letting agent to invoice you periodically so surely you knew this was going to catch up with you at some point. If it was me and I hadn't received it after 3 months or so I would've given the LA a nudge, knowing full well that if I didn't, I would lead to this scenario later down the line. 

saajan_12

Schwarzwald said:

Seeking opinions and advise on a classic end of tenancy deposit dispute situation, but including one probably slightly unconventional item …

 

Just bought property so moved out of my rented accommodation in London after nearly 7 years.

It was a new build when I moved in and I was the first tenant living in the flat.

Over the entire time I paid rent as agreed each month in full, we never had any problems. One year upon renewal, we agreed the rent to go up, sometimes we agreed it to go down. I would describe myself as a very respectful tenant, who considered the flat his temporary and rented home, but I took great care of the property IMHO.

With every new build there were teething issues at the beginning and through the tenancy, but I was more interested in getting things fixed and resolved than being a painful complaining tenant. 

 As a matter of reference, over the entire 7 years I think I had asked less than 5 times for any works, replacements, etc. and these primarily due to two leaks from above and similar items.

I vacated the property more than 3 weeks ago in early January.

It took the letting agent nearly two weeks to produce the check-out report, also longer than agreed in the tenancy agreement (10 days). 

 

Following situation has now arisen:

1. Deposit: approx. £2k

I had the property cleaned by a cleaning service, total of c.10 man hours for a 2-bdr flat. Tenancy agreement does not require a professional cleaning and upon leaving I was v happy with the result even thinking that the flat literally looked similar to day 1 when I moved in. - that was your choice to hire cleaners, you could have cleaned yourself. 

The Letting Agent has now produced a very detailed 60-page (!) check-out report and is comparing it to a far less detailed 10-page inventory/move-in report. - all that matters is what problems they find after and whether they can prove the condition before. They may spend 60 pages in the check out detailing things that are fine, or different angles of something wrong, which was new at the start (proven by a receipt instead of a million pics)

They produced a list of approx. 10 deduction items totalling approx. £800. 8-9 of these items are total non-sense IMO, including “splash marks over the cooker” and “stain marks over the extractor hood” in the kitchen. I mean I cooked there for 7 years, sure there are some stains …. and the tenancy agreement does not require me to repaint the flat. - no repainting necessarily, but you are required to act in a tenant like manner and maintain it in a clean manner, so cleaning splashes or stains as they happen would avoid this. If at the end you haven't, then painting might resolve this more easily, but that's only as a result of not cleaning as expected so still your responsibility. 

With the other non-sense items, can't advise without seeing them.  

 As the oven seemed to be missed out by the cleaning service, I told them I would accept this one as the only shortcoming and agree to a £200 deduction to close matters out. -fair enough

 The letting agent has gone silent for the last 10 days and I have now set them a deadline for Friday, proposing to take it to the deposit dispute scheme otherwise. - fair enough. I think there is a benefit in discussing mutually and if you come to an agreement you don't necessarily have to produce all the evidence needed by a deposit scheme. However 10 days sounds reasonable to wait and now you may as well get the ball rolling with the deposit scheme. 

 This is more a matter of principle topic to me, I am quite annoyed by their request and the poor communication and feel unfairly treated.

 Question 1: if we cant settle this amicably, how do deposit dispute case examiners look at these items?

 - they'll look at the evidence provided by the LL/LA re damages, whether it was there at the start, decide if its fair wear & tear and the cost to remedy. Its up to the LL/LA to prove damages, but this is on the balance of probabilities, similar to a small claims court so not 100% irrefutable proof catching you in the act. You can also submit evidence to refute their claims, and the arbitrators would look at both. 

 2. Hot Water Bill: approx. £2k

This one is slightly more tricky.

Upon commencing my tenancy, I was told (in writing) by the Letting Agent that I don’t need to register for hot water, instead the Letting Agent will invoice me periodically. 

So I didn’t open an account with the hot water provider and as time went on and no bill was ever sent, it seemed we all forgot about that.

Over the years I kept receiving letters from a utility company addressed to the LL. Initially I returned them unopened to the utility company, as they kept coming, I then forwarded them unopened to the Letting Agent. But they kept coming.

Last year and annoyed by still receiving them - I tactically unwise – finally opened one, saw that the utility company is chasing for payment and felt it was the morally right thing to do to inform the Letting Agent.

They woke up to the fact that they forgot to invoice the hot water and asked me to settle the outstanding amounts as I used it.

Already knowing I will move out soon, I dragged my feet a bit and pushed back as I wanted to first see how they go about the deposit and potentially use the hot water bill as a negotiation chip.

As they now acting unreasonable IMO when it comes to the deposit, I am rethinking my position on the water bill. While morally i agree that I used the water and would typically agree to settle it, I would be interested to hear what the legal position is.

• The utility bill is not on my name, it is in the LL’s name.
• I never had a contractual relationship with the utility provider. - you likely DID have a 'deemed contract' with the utility provider when you moved in as the main tenant. 
• Until today, the Letting Agent has never sent me a formal invoice. if you agreed to pay them for the water, then the lack of invoice doesn't invalidate that. They  have to communicate and prove the amount at some point, but that doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of an invoice. 
• As of today, there is no more contractual relationship between me and the LL/Letting Agent , so I am not sure whether they could still send me a bill after the tenancy ended? - incorrect, your tenancy has ended but the contract is more than that. Just like your deposit (less deductions) is a contractual amount the LL has to return , and you can chase that after the tenancy, similarly anything you owed them can be enforced after. Sending the bill isn't a new contract, its just providing info about an existing contract. 
• The tenancy agreement states that [the deposit can be used for] “any unpaid accounts … for utilities or water … for which the tenant is liable.” - as above, you likely are liable, and even if not, that just addresses how the deposit can be used. They can always sue for the water bill. 

 Question 2: Am I liable for a bill with a utility provider that I never had a contractual relationship with?
I am aware debt can be asked for for something like 6 years, but it simply isn't in my name ...

Again, from a substance perspective I am not disputing that I probably should have paid that bill in the first place, but why should I do the Letting Agent's job and remind them to send me an invoice? that's not my role to play, and as they are acting unreasonable on the deposit, why should I be the one acting reasonable on the Utility Bill? 

Thank you 

 

With the water bill, there's two aspects here: 
1) You and utility company
Is the water bill assessed for that property (whether by meter or by standing charge) or is it one bill for a larger block that's then subdivided? 

If the former, then when you move in, you enter a 'deemed contract' with the utility provider. As between you and the utility provider, it is up to you to set up an account, choose a tariff if applicable etc, but you DO have a contractual relationship with them. This is unaffected by any side agreements with the LL/LA to pay the bills and then charge you. As between you and the utility provider, its you. 

2) You and LL/LA
If you agreed they would pay utilities and you would reimburse, then that contract is already binding, regardless of an invoice.  The fact they are only chasing / enforcing it now doesn't restart the clock. The utility company would take their money (although the LL doesn't owe it to them) and then the LL could sue you to be reimbursed. Alternatively, you could pay the utility company directly and then the LL would have no net cost to claim from you.

Now if there are any late costs, you may be able to argue the LL should cover that (or reimburse you), but the actual water usage and standing charges are legally your responsibility. 

Schwarzwald

TripleH said:

Did you have sight of / sign this check-in report the letting agents are referring to?

yes I had sight of it, they even try to deduct for items that were listed as a defect in the move-in report, it's all a bit rubbing me off the wrong way, which is why I am taking also an "unreasonable" position on the hot water. If they agree just to deduct some £200 for additional cleaning, I am happy to pay the accrued hot water.

emmajones1976

Just a general question. What is a "hot water" bill? I have an electric bill, and a water bill. Is this some weird London thing?

Schwarzwald

Mahsroh said:

I don't see your argument on the water bill though. You knew the intention was the letting agent to invoice you periodically so surely you knew this was going to catch up with you at some point. If it was me and I hadn't received it after 3 months or so I would've given the LA a nudge, knowing full well that if I didn't, I would lead to this scenario later down the line. 

I know the argument is weak, I am just using it as a potential negotiation chip.

The honest truth on the billing is though, that yes I was always confused why I never had to register anywhere and no bills were coming, but I had a busy life and other things to take care of. And from a pure cash flow perspective, I am better off settling the accrued amount now vs over the last 7 years ... that's why I was never keen to investigate it, just no upside.

Schwarzwald

emmajones1976 said:

Just a general question. What is a "hot water" bill? I have an electric bill, and a water bill. Is this some weird London thing?

I think more a new-build thing: 

"Heat networks, also known as communal and district heating schemes, are a lower carbon way to heat buildings. Instead of homes being heated by individual gas boilers, for heat networks there is one central energy source providing heating and hot water to each property via a network of insulated pipes."

emmajones1976

So you have a normal water bill on top of a hot water bill?

Bizarre.