Recording of telephone conversation with permission

CKhalvashi

melb said:

we have paid about half of what he was claiming based on the fact that he is charging for an 'out of hours' callout when in fact we first contacted him in the morning and it was his decision that the electrician came at 5.30 to look at the problem and then returned at 7.30 to do the work.  We didn't say we were in any rush to have the work done

If there was a danger to anyone (including you), then they would have been in breach of their duty to you to leave it.

'My husband died/was seriously injured' wouldn't look good as a thread title for them.

It's therefore obvious to me that the implications of them not doing this work was serious, unless you were willing to find another contractor quickly.

As a business, we will normally proceed with LBA and then court action 14 days later, avoiding the debt collection process completely, however if the company wishes to pass something on to a debt collector as further evidence of claim, even if not required, then this should be ok as long as both parties are registered as Data Controllers.

As far as I see this, the business has the right to be paid for the work they've done, calling a tradesman at 17:30 (I assume) does hint at some type of urgency unless you specifically specified otherwise, especially with no evidence of 'when are you free within normal working hours?' in that call.

MalMonroe

melb said:

sorry to resurrect my post - i am sure you have all moved on to better things!  We have received an email from the 'debt recovery department' in which they confirm they have listened to the telephone recording.  After doing some research online I am surprised that you say there is no problem in them doing this as I thought permission had to be sought beforehand.  Also my understanding that a business can only record telephone conversations with an individual under certain circumstances, none of which are the case here.

They have further threatened to come and remove the part they have fitted and say they will be within their rights to do this 'as the part is fitted in a charger which is outside the house so they would be able to do this without disturbance to you'.  They say they retain the right to do this as set out in their terms and conditions.  We have never seen these as they are not on the invoice, nor are they on their website.

They will be trespassing will they not if they access our drive without permission?

They also refer to the fact that the fitted part remains their property until it is paid for - surely £144 would cover the cost of a £7 part?  Also having looked online it is my understanding that once fitted, parts automatically become the property of the client irrespective of whether they have been paid for.

Would it be classed as a danger to life should an electrician remove a part which is meant to offer protection from electrocution?

Would the police be interested in a threat to remove property?

Calls can be recorded without anyone's permission but as others have said, recordings obtained in that way cannot be passed to a third party without the permission of the person who has been recorded. So permission DOES have to be obtained at some point, depending on how the recording was made.

What I find weird with your case is that everything is being done by that company 'in house'. That is, the person who did the work says he's recorded the conversation and you have been threatened with debt collectors. Now the company's own 'debt recovery department' has apparently carried out investigations and agreed with the person who did the work. But it's all the same company.

The company hasn't engaged anyone on an independent basis to look at what has been going on. Of course the company will agree with their own worker. It doesn't mean that they are in the right.

You need proof of what this company is saying. If they rely on going to court they will have to present proof of their claim.

Where is the recording and why haven't you been sent a copy? Where are their terms and conditions? They need to send you a copy of those also.

They will not be able to take any action whatsoever unless or until they provide proof that what they are saying is true.

Just ask them to provide all the relevant information for your perusal and don't respond to their threats and bullying. 

For further advice you could contact Citizens Advice - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

porkisnotmeat

Jenni_D said:

If they recorded calls, and didn't make the other party aware that they were recording, then they cannot share that recording with ANYONE or use it in any way. (Only a judge can authorise the use of recordings obtained without consent). I'm not 100% but I think it is a combination of RIPA and GDPR which governs this. (Random search result below).

https://www.ereceptionist.co.uk/blog/legal-to-record-phone-calls-uk

Is it legal to record phone calls in the UK? 

Yes, it is legal to record phone calls in the UK, but there are some restrictions.

Under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) it is legal for individuals to tape conversations, provided the recording is for their own use.

However, legislation states that sharing information without consent to a third party is a breach of this law, so the GDPR was created as a guide on the safe sharing of data.

To sum up: it’s not illegal to record a call or even collect data. It is illegal, however, to publicise or share such data with third parties without consent.

That doesn't really apply when a debt is passed on.  They're not sharing data, they're assigning it to someone else.

Faffing around with this as some sort of DPA issue is a non-starter.

If the OP owes the money they should pay it, if they don't, they should not.

It really is that simple.

Jenni_D

In very few cases are debts actually assigned ... a debt collector is simply being paid a fee to collect the alleged debt for the original claimant. Assigned debts need to be formally assigned, and the debtor must be informed (in writing) of the assignment.

sheramber

melb said:

his version of events is that we agreed to either 3 or 4 hours labour plus parts.  Who in their right mind would do that?  yes it is time to ask for a copy of the recording - although how they would be able to send it is another matter.  I disagree about whether the recording is justified to 'establish the existence of facts'.  i would have thought this would be more about asking questions and receiving answers - how is someone saying they don't know how long a job will take or what materials they may need to use classed as facts?
They are going to issue another invoice incurring a late payment fee of £35 plus 7% on top.  How is this legal when the Gov.uk site says that a late payment is after 30 days?

Why would you agree to a job  without a estimate/quote for the job?

You could have asked him for that once he saw what was needed.   A bit late to query the cost once the job is done.

Ergates

Jenni_D said:

In very few cases are debts actually assigned ... a debt collector is simply being paid a fee to collect the alleged debt for the original claimant. Assigned debts need to be formally assigned, and the debtor must be informed (in writing) of the assignment.

In this case the "debt collector" is just the collections department for the same company - meaning they're not sharing anything with a 3rd party.

CKhalvashi

Ergates said:

Jenni_D said:

In very few cases are debts actually assigned ... a debt collector is simply being paid a fee to collect the alleged debt for the original claimant. Assigned debts need to be formally assigned, and the debtor must be informed (in writing) of the assignment.

In this case the "debt collector" is just the collections department for the same company - meaning they're not sharing anything with a 3rd party.

This can be outsourced in many cases too. For a small business it likely will be.

Manxman_in_exile

Having read all of this thread and the other thread I don't understand where the OP is going with this regarding the recording?

If the recording confirms the OP's belief then he needs to hear it and he needs to ask for a copy of it.  There's no point complaining about it under GDPR if it supports his case!

If it doesn't support his case then he still needs to ask for it and listen to it.  Then he needs to pay the electrician!

The recording is probably an irrelevance anyway.  The electrician (or whoever kept the recording) could simply have taken a verbatim written record of the conversation over the 'phone or could just make a verbatim transcript of that recording - and that's assuming a recording exists at all - I'm not convinced it isn't just a bluff by the electrician to get the OP to pay up. 

At the end of the day I can't see any problem with the electrician sharing any information they have supporting the alleged debt with their own in-house collection team or a third party one.

The real issue is whether the OP owes the money or not.  I'm afraid the OP's attempts to divert this into a question about the propriety or otherwise of any recording just sounds like they are regretting not asking the electrician the right questions when they originally asked for help, and are now trying to wriggle out of paying.

(And for clarity, I don't think there was anything wrong if the electrician did make a recording of the conversation.  And if they made a transcript of that recording I think it's a reasonable business need to pass it onto anybody trying to collect that debt on their behalf).

melb

the sequence of events:
phone call to electrician mid-morning asking if someone can come and help diagnose a fault with our rolec ev charger which is dead (therefore as no electricity it is not a danger to life I assume).
electrician rings back at lunchtime to say his electrician can call some time after 4.30 which we say is fine.
5.30 electrician arrives and says he needs to replace the rcbo in the charger and is going to get one
7.30 he returns and replaces the part
he replaces the part with one that costs £7.59 from screwfix
we then receive the invoice.  The electrician says this is an out of hours call. (his decision, not ours)
how could we possibly have obtained a quote for the work on the phone when we had no idea what work/part might be needed? the electrician on the other hand could have formed an educated guess that the part that had failed is the one that has a bad reputation for doing so (after all they install rolec chargers)
All the research we had done in the couple of days beforehand said it was a cheap part that took less than an hour to fit.
I agree we should have asked what their hourly rate was but that was the only thing that could be quoted. We have learnt a lesson there.
He is now threatening to come and remove the part he fitted plus even more extra late charges.  We have told him that if he trespasses he will incur charges.
Still no sign of the recording.  I hope he does take us to court.  We have seen off barristers in 2 court cases -one as defendants in a boundary dispute in full fast-track court (£11,000 legal fees for the other side) and took a builder to court and were awarded £7,000 (don't ask me how as the limit at the time was £5,000) and entered pre-court mediation with someone who sold us a duff car and got refunded most of the cost of the car.  Each time we represented ourselves and told the truth.

Richard_T_

Under Data protection rules/law (GDPR) you are entitled to a copy of all data held about you, including recorded phone calls CCTV footage and so on.

 You should ask for this recording - especially as they are using it to base a claim against you