Advice on officially splitting house into 2 to enable selling of one.

djewson

theoretica said:

On selling one of the two properties separately - I think that might need planning permission as a 'change of use' especially if the initial planning permission was definitely for an extension not a separate dwelling.

Thats what we were thinking to be fair.
Definitely something to look into, how easy this will be remains to be seen.
I guess it will be down to regulations and if the build has hit the requirements etc.

djewson

CIS said:

With all due respect, your solicitor doesn't really understand council tax legislation. As someone who specifically in dealing with council tax issues, it's very common to see people try and dabble with it, without appreciating that it's a whole multitude of tax legislation in its own right. Simply calling something an 'extension' doesn't bypass council tax legislation.

The 'extension' is clearly either a s3 dwelling or an article 3 dwelling (self-contained unit). The valuation office agency would make the decision as to which it falls under. On an appeal, there's no way from what you've described that you would get its own banding removed as the property presently stands.

In basic terms, they both lead to a council tax band being issued, but the specific method of banding will determine if any additional discounts or reductions can apply to the 'extension'. The reason banding can be backdated is to prevent it being avoided in situations like this where records need to be corrected to ensure the tax records are correct.

How it is termed for council tax purposes is entirely different to how it may be termed for other purposes - the council tax definition extends no further than the calculation of council tax. Other legislation, and other bodies, can come up with different determinations for their own purposes.

I thought this regarding the solicitors comments, having myself read up about annexe rules and council taxes for buildings etc.
It seemed a little matter of fact which this isnt.
I think my parents were definitely mislead when it came to the adjoining door by the building inspector etc.
otherwise it would have been installed, thankfully going forward this will actually be beneficial to us if we rent out the main or if possible look into split and sell option.

martindow

Regarding planning permission, it has now been two separate dwellings for ten years or so.  Isn't there some time scale after which the LA have to accept the planning breach as a fait accompli?

user1977

martindow said:

Regarding planning permission, it has now been two separate dwellings for ten years or so.  Isn't there some time scale after which the LA have to accept the planning breach as a fait accompli?

Not particularly "separate" if it's always effectively been a granny annexe.

CIS

djewson said:

CIS said:

With all due respect, your solicitor doesn't really understand council tax legislation. As someone who specifically in dealing with council tax issues, it's very common to see people try and dabble with it, without appreciating that it's a whole multitude of tax legislation in its own right. Simply calling something an 'extension' doesn't bypass council tax legislation.

The 'extension' is clearly either a s3 dwelling or an article 3 dwelling (self-contained unit). The valuation office agency would make the decision as to which it falls under. On an appeal, there's no way from what you've described that you would get its own banding removed as the property presently stands.

In basic terms, they both lead to a council tax band being issued, but the specific method of banding will determine if any additional discounts or reductions can apply to the 'extension'. The reason banding can be backdated is to prevent it being avoided in situations like this where records need to be corrected to ensure the tax records are correct.

How it is termed for council tax purposes is entirely different to how it may be termed for other purposes - the council tax definition extends no further than the calculation of council tax. Other legislation, and other bodies, can come up with different determinations for their own purposes.

I thought this regarding the solicitors comments, having myself read up about annexe rules and council taxes for buildings etc.
It seemed a little matter of fact which this isnt.
I think my parents were definitely mislead when it came to the adjoining door by the building inspector etc.
otherwise it would have been installed, thankfully going forward this will actually be beneficial to us if we rent out the main or if possible look into split and sell option.

The building inspector would know little about council tax as it's an entirely separate system.

A door between the properties wouldn't be itself prevent (or cause) individual banding.

djewson

The building inspector would know little about council tax as it's an entirely separate system.

A door between the properties wouldn't be itself prevent (or cause) individual banding.

It has in this case as that's what the council said the other day.
Due to it not having a door, it's classed as a separate dwelling.
That is what they have used to give it a new band and also a new address.

It is and always has been one family home

Owned by myself and my wife

With my parents and grandmother living there 

Going forward the split is fine, but a money grab for the previous year is out of order

You could say that my parents who are both over 65 are actually dependant on us which would also negate a separate CT bill as they live in the annexe 
(Though as we don't actually live there that probably wouldn't apply)

But the council have said it's not an annexe due to the missing door anyway.

I think a trip to planning is in order next to see about an official split possibility.

CIS

djewson said:

The building inspector would know little about council tax as it's an entirely separate system.

A door between the properties wouldn't be itself prevent (or cause) individual banding.

It has in this case as that's what the council said the other day.
Due to it not having a door, it's classed as a separate dwelling.
That is what they have used to give it a new band and also a new address.

It is and always has been one family home

Owned by myself and my wife

With my parents and grandmother living there 

Going forward the split is fine, but a money grab for the previous year is out of order

You could say that my parents who are both over 65 are actually dependant on us which would also negate a separate CT bill as they live in the annexe 
(Though as we don't actually live there that probably wouldn't apply)

But the council have said it's not an annexe due to the missing door anyway.

I think a trip to planning is in order next to see about an official split possibility.

For council tax purposes, an annexe is very specific technical definition, which rests on the decision of the VOA and the banding method used but also other factors at the council's side.

It has in this case as that's what the council said the other day. Due to it not having a door, it's classed as a separate dwelling.

Banding isn't the council's remit, so they tend to have a limited experience on it at their side.  'Separate dwelling' can mean two different things depending on the context, each of which can have quite different effects on the banding decision and any future council tax situation - they'd need to clarify whether it was s3 or article 3 that was used (and the VOA's own rules state they should not disclose this to the council - which leads to more fun when dealing with this sort of issue). The fact there's a door or not makes no real difference - it's far more in-depth and nuanced than that in the decision-making process.

As an outside view on this, it's clear that it is two properties for council tax and should likely always have been. The VOA have made that decision as well so the council are therefore entitled to correct the council tax records, and recover any monies.

HampshireH

I'm probably completely off the mark with this 

But if you own the property and your family have been living in it as a single household, how did the council know to bill your parents for their extension/annexe/dwelling as effectively your sole occupants.

Is the unoccupied bill now in your name?

Presumably the council tax bill would have been in your grans name  and then defaulted back to you when she moved out or did they contact the council to register it in their name?

I'm just confused as to how the council suddenly knew to bill them seperately. Our Council can't do anything fast so for all this to happen in half an hour is quite amazing

From an outsider if definitely sounds like they have been living seperately and independently of each other so can see why the council think so too 

djewson

So going forward 
If we have the council saying that it is 2 separate dwellings 
The VOA saying the same

We now have 2 separate addresses and 2 separate CT bands and payments etc

Where does that leave us for an official split of the land, property, deeds etc ??

djewson

HampshireH said:

I'm probably completely off the mark with this 

But if you own the property and your family have been living in it as a single household, how did the council know to bill your parents for their extension/annexe/dwelling as effectively your sole occupants.

Is the unoccupied bill now in your name?

Presumably the council tax bill would have been in your grans name  and then defaulted back to you when she moved out or did they contact the council to register it in their name?

I'm just confused as to how the council suddenly knew to bill them seperately. Our Council can't do anything fast so for all this to happen in half an hour is quite amazing

From an outsider if definitely sounds like they have been living seperately and independently of each other so can see why the council think so too 

Absolutely agree with you there

The whole house was in grans name 
It was always paid a year in front by my parent's rather than my gran for financial reasons.

This all came about when she had to go into care 
The house is still apparently exempt due to her being in care even though the house isn't actually hers 
We assume it's still classed as her home for whatever purposes

But yes 
Has been a family home since my parents moved in with my gran about 15 years ago to help take care of her, they built the extension to give them all a bit more room and privacy.

They were stunned at the council contacting them within that hour of my gran being moved into the home.

The council initially asked about the house probably looking to take it to pay for her care only to be told it wasn't actually her house.

My parents answered everything honestly and explained the whole situation etc 

Only to end up where we are now 

We assume the CT exemption is what triggered it and they wanted to pull sime money in to help pay for her care from somewhere 

It still annoys us that no one from the council has ever contacted us once even though they had our name and address to do so

But chose to do all this via my parents when the property isn't even theirs to make any choices or decisions about it