Laws around using mobile phones while driving?

TooManyPoints

Yes, they have been prattling on about introducing new legislation for almost three years in the wake of the Ramsey Barreto judgement. They seem to be achieving their aim of bamboozling people into believing they have already done so. But they haven't.

This article blusters on, saying it's going to happen:

New motoring law to close dangerous mobile phone loophole from next year | NationalWorld

This gives details of the consultation that has taken place:

Using a mobile phone while driving consultation outcome ​ - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Its "next steps" statement says "DfT proposes to implement this change at the earliest opportunity so that the police can enforce the offence in a more straightforward way."

Quite why a consultation exercise was necessary is a little unclear. The DPP and CPS already believed the law stretched to non-interactive communication use. That's why the "case stated" was heard in the High Court when Mr Barreto was acquitted on appeal in the Crown Court. All they needed to do was to draft an amendment to the law to align with what they already believed was the case. The High Court judgement explains:

It is the appellant’s [The DPP's] case that the regulation prohibits all use of a mobile phone while driving. It is the respondent’s [Mr Barreto's] case that the regulations are directed only to the use of phones and other devices for the purposes of interactive communication. The answer to this appeal lies in the interpretation of legislation in the terms that Parliament chose to enact it rather than as it might be assumed to be.

They answered that question in Mr Barreto's favour.

The danger in the DfT's strategy is that people will believe they have changed the legislation and will accept a fixed penalty when they have no need to do so. And that's deceitful.

Grey_Critic

Can talk about this until the Cows come home but no matter what you think if caught using a mobile whilst driving it is points on your licence and money out of your pocket with the fine and increased insurance premiums.

Not worth the hassle - and as I said earlier an inquest heard how a woman watching Love Island on her mobile ran into a truck and was killed. It could so easily have been another car with a family in it.

Car_54

Grey_Critic said:

Can talk about this until the Cows come home but no matter what you think if caught using a mobile whilst driving it is points on your licence and money out of your pocket with the fine and increased insurance premiums.

Not worth the hassle - and as I said earlier an inquest heard how a woman watching Love Island on her mobile ran into a truck and was killed. It could so easily have been another car with a family in it.

If only it were that simple ...

The 2003 law was very badly written and made using a mobile phone while driving an offence, but it didn't define either "using" or "driving". It wasn't until 2019 that the courts decided what "using" meant.

There is still no clear case law on what is meant by "driving".

spiro

TooManyPoints said:

The mobile phone legislation applies to hand held mobile devices. If they are in a holder they are not hand held. More than that, to be guilty of a mobile phone offence it must be used for "interactive communication". So you can use it to take photos, take videos and listen to music. This clarification follows from the case, in 2019, of Ramsey Barreto vs DPP:

Director of Public Prosecutions v Barreto [2019] EWHC 2044 (Admin) (31 July 2019) (bailii.org)

Mr Barreto was convicted following being caught using his phone to film an accident. He appealed to the Crown Court who upheld his appeal. The DPP took a "case stated" to the High Court who confirmed the Crown Court's decision by ruling in Mr Barreto's favour. The government has pledged to modify the law to close this loophole but they have been too busy partying to do so. This very day Frank Lampard was acquitted (with help from "Mr Loophole", aka Nick Freeman):

Frank Lampard AVOIDS prosecution despite being caught driving with mobile phone and coffee | Daily Mail Online

Of course drivers faffing about with phones (but not using them for interactive communication) can still be charged with careless driving or driving whilst not in proper control.

The law is changing this year so that case will no longer apply.

TooManyPoints

The law is changing this year so that case will no longer apply.

Yes I know that case will no longer apply when the law is changed. When you say that the law will change this year, do you have any information about when that might be, because I don't? I've only seen vague promises. My point is that the DfT is giving people the impression that it has already changed and will be incorporated into the new version of the Highway Code due out next week. If the law hasn't changed, to give that impression is misleading.

Grumpy_chap

Herzlos said:

So use it as a sat nav in a mount but don't adjust it whilst driving. 

When using the phone as a sat nav, does anyone here have any recommendation for a good universal mount?

I have one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modohe-Universal-Dashboard-Holder-Non-Slip-Black/dp/B07CXDZF7S/

It worked well-enough and is low-cost, but yesterday it broke - only used half-a-dozen times or so.  I may have just been unlucky for it to break so soon but before going to just get the same again, I thought there might be people here that can recommend something they know to do the trick and have reasonable longevity.

Ectophile

When the new Highway Code comes out, the question of what the law is should be answered. If the Highway Code says "you must", then it will have a reference to the relevant law. Otherwise it's guidance, which can be used to determine liability in a civil case.

Car_54

spiro said:

TooManyPoints said:

The mobile phone legislation applies to hand held mobile devices. If they are in a holder they are not hand held. More than that, to be guilty of a mobile phone offence it must be used for "interactive communication". So you can use it to take photos, take videos and listen to music. This clarification follows from the case, in 2019, of Ramsey Barreto vs DPP:

Director of Public Prosecutions v Barreto [2019] EWHC 2044 (Admin) (31 July 2019) (bailii.org)

Mr Barreto was convicted following being caught using his phone to film an accident. He appealed to the Crown Court who upheld his appeal. The DPP took a "case stated" to the High Court who confirmed the Crown Court's decision by ruling in Mr Barreto's favour. The government has pledged to modify the law to close this loophole but they have been too busy partying to do so. This very day Frank Lampard was acquitted (with help from "Mr Loophole", aka Nick Freeman):

Frank Lampard AVOIDS prosecution despite being caught driving with mobile phone and coffee | Daily Mail Online

Of course drivers faffing about with phones (but not using them for interactive communication) can still be charged with careless driving or driving whilst not in proper control.

The law is changing this year so that case will no longer apply.

Yes indeed. A government minister said so.

ElefantEd

Car_54 said:

spiro said:

TooManyPoints said:

The mobile phone legislation applies to hand held mobile devices. If they are in a holder they are not hand held. More than that, to be guilty of a mobile phone offence it must be used for "interactive communication". So you can use it to take photos, take videos and listen to music. This clarification follows from the case, in 2019, of Ramsey Barreto vs DPP:

Director of Public Prosecutions v Barreto [2019] EWHC 2044 (Admin) (31 July 2019) (bailii.org)

Mr Barreto was convicted following being caught using his phone to film an accident. He appealed to the Crown Court who upheld his appeal. The DPP took a "case stated" to the High Court who confirmed the Crown Court's decision by ruling in Mr Barreto's favour. The government has pledged to modify the law to close this loophole but they have been too busy partying to do so. This very day Frank Lampard was acquitted (with help from "Mr Loophole", aka Nick Freeman):

Frank Lampard AVOIDS prosecution despite being caught driving with mobile phone and coffee | Daily Mail Online

Of course drivers faffing about with phones (but not using them for interactive communication) can still be charged with careless driving or driving whilst not in proper control.

The law is changing this year so that case will no longer apply.

Yes indeed. A government minister said so.

Considering that government ministers have said all sorts of things in the last few days, months and years, many with only a passing resemblance to the truth, I wouldn't necessarily hold my breath!

Freecall

The law is changing this year so that case will no longer apply.

There is a sweeping statement if ever I saw one.

After Barreto the Government's natural response was to tighten the law accordingly.  Unfortunately the way the original Bill was drawn up embeds the problem within the primary legislation itself which means that it cannot be amended by Government using secondary legislation or a Ministerial Statement.

Consequently the Act itself would need to be amended and I don't think that political will to use parliamentary time to make that happen.

Presumably you have some sort of inside track on the parliamentary timetable?