Natwest - Occupiers Consent and Postponement Deed - witnessing

doningtonphil

Hello

My sister in law rents a room from a friend who currently rents.  The friend is buying a flat in the same building, so is getting her first mortgage.  My SiLhas been given a 'NatWest  Occupiers Consent and Postponement Deed' to sign.  It suggests independent legal advice be taken.  As my SiL has no monetary or legal interest in the property she accepts that she could get kicked out if her 'landlord' decides to sell the house.
Anyway, she has now been told that the witness to her signature must be a legal person (although the form states that if the witness is a legal person then they must include the name and address of their firm - which suggests the wintess may not be a legal person)

So it seems she needs to get it notarised.  Whn my wife worked at a solicitors 20 years ago she says they used to charge £5 and one of the partners would nip out to reception, witness the signature and then pocket the £5 charge.

SiL says she is gettign quotes of £150 or more.  Is she asking the right question?  Must this form be signed by a legal person?

She is in Nottingham if anyone local can help

Any help much appreciated....

user1977

Can you tell us exactly what it says? I doubt it uses the expression "legal person", for a start! If it merely "suggests" that she gets legal advice then that indicates that it isn't mandatory.

Given this is ultimately for the landlord's benefit, isn't she helping?

doningtonphil

It says "signed as a deed by the occupier in the presence of the witness (who must add details of firm if  solicitor, licensed conveyancer, or Fello of the Institute of Legal Executived who is employed by a solicitor)"

So the landlords solicitor or NatWest are interpreting that as not just anyone. 

The form also states:
"the occupier aknowledges that priorto signing this deed the occupier has been advised by the bank to take independenet legal advice and has been given an opportunity to do so"

So as you say, not mandatory, and in this case not particularlynecessary unless someone can tell us differently.

So, must the witness be a 'legal person' or is tht just the solicitor's interpretation?

user1977

doningtonphil said:

So, must the witness be a 'legal person' or is tht just the solicitor's interpretation?

The latter.

I mean, it's also possible to get a solicitor etc to witness your signature without them actually giving you any advice about it, but the fact it says "if" solicitor etc suggests other types of witness are permissible.

Slithery

doningtonphil said:

It says "signed as a deed by the occupier in the presence of the witness (who must add details of firm if  solicitor, licensed conveyancer, or Fello of the Institute of Legal Executived who is employed by a solicitor)"

If that's all it says then if they're not a 'solicitor, licensed conveyancer, or Fello of the Institute of Legal Executived who is employed by a solicitor' (sic) then they don't have to add their details. It doesn't say that the witness has to be one of these things.

doningtonphil

THnaks all, so thatvis how we all interpret it, but it seems the conveyancing solicitor is insisting it should be a 'legal person'.  Is that NatWest's position or just their interpretation.

Can anyone who has completed theis form advise if they did so successfully by not getting a 'legal person' to sign it?

GDB2222

Notarised is not the same as witnessed, which might explain the £150 quotes.

doningtonphil

I always thought that notarised was an official way of saying witnessed.

I think the quotes have been including the suggested legal advice.

So how much will a solicitor charge (if that's what we need to do to make everyone happy) to watch a piece of paper being signed?

canaldumidi

Quite possible the conveyancer acting for the buyer (SIL's friend) and lender (Nat West) would witness it free. Or for a token fee.

What they will NOT do is offer advice, as that would be a conflict of interest (advising both her friend as landlord and SIL as tenant).

And yes, advice costs more than just acting as witness!

Advice is probably pointless, though as with any legal document, if SIL has any doubt about what it means, or what she's signing, then get advice!

user1977

doningtonphil said:

I always thought that notarised was an official way of saying witnessed.

No, notarising is a form of "super-witnessing" for more solemn types of declaration. Nothing you've said suggests they want it notarised.

Witnessing without giving any advice is the sort of fiver in the back pocket arrangement.

But like I said, it should really be the borrower doing the running around to sort this out.

kingstreet

Presumably, the sister-in-law is moving in with the friend purchaser?

Is she moving in on completion day? If she moves in later, there is no need for a consent to mortgage form.