Removing internal wall

Motherofcelticdragons

First, disclaimer: Absolute DIY novice and mostly looking for opinions before I raise this as an idea to my exasperated other half, who is much more capable at DIY :-)

TLDR: is removing an internal wall costly and painful, and can a supporting wall only be identified by an expert?

We live in a teeny london terrace, moved into it in July 2021. Has a small front room and, historically, there was a 2nd reception room at the back with a galley kitchen next to it. The previous owners put the kitchen into the back reception room and the original galley kitchen space is- to my mind- just a bit of dead space. We've currently got it set up as a play room but its so small that as soon as any toys are out, there's no room to actually play! 

So, I'd like to remove the wall so at least we have a space for a dining table within the 'widen' kitchen. Just a bit more *living space*. 

First, can a novice identify if a wall is supporting? I appreciate this would add more cost straight away.
Would it pay to engage a designer/ architect of some sort to best think through the new space (combined, it would be roughly 3.35m x 5m)? 
Any vague guidance on what this sort of change would cost (I know labour and materials are currently sky high)? Wall removal, shifting of kitchen cabinets.... electrics i guess and maybe new back door/windows/ bricking up some? 


Finally, I think the kitchen is probably relatively new but I can't see in the inside anywhere what the brand is... any ways of identifying beyond the obvious?!

thanks very much in advance!

FreeBear

Motherofcelticdragons said: First, can a novice identify if a wall is supporting?

Yes. If you look at what is above, it will provide clues. e.g. If there is a brick wall in the same place in any rooms above, the wall is structural. If no wall, lift the floorboards. If the joists ends overhang the wall below, it is structural.

Even if none of the above apply, the wall could be providing lateral stability to the external walls or could be providing support for excessively long joists above. If you plan on removing a wall, it is prudent to consult a structural engineer (not an architect) who will take a closer look. Should steels be required, he/she will be able to provide calculations & specifications which you can then pass on to Building Control to get the work signed off.

What is not so easy is to spot a wall that isn't structural - Even a timber stud wall could be providing support, so getting proper advice from a qualified professional is always a good idea. Knocking out a critical wall could seriously devalue your property and render it structurally unsafe. Removing a wall (even if it isn't structural) without the proper paperwork in place could create problems when you come to sell. Plenty of threads on this forum along the lines of "wall removed, no building regs sign off, trouble selling".

Motherofcelticdragons

FreeBear said:

Motherofcelticdragons said: First, can a novice identify if a wall is supporting?

Yes. If you look at what is above, it will provide clues. e.g. If there is a brick wall in the same place in any rooms above, the wall is structural. If no wall, lift the floorboards. If the joists ends overhang the wall below, it is structural.

Even if none of the above apply, the wall could be providing lateral stability to the external walls or could be providing support for excessively long joists above. If you plan on removing a wall, it is prudent to consult a structural engineer (not an architect) who will take a closer look. Should steels be required, he/she will be able to provide calculations & specifications which you can then pass on to Building Control to get the work signed off.

What is not so easy is to spot a wall that isn't structural - Even a timber stud wall could be providing support, so getting proper advice from a qualified professional is always a good idea. Knocking out a critical wall could seriously devalue your property and render it structurally unsafe. Removing a wall (even if it isn't structural) without the proper paperwork in place could create problems when you come to sell. Plenty of threads on this forum along the lines of "wall removed, no building regs sign off, trouble selling".

Thank you! That's all really helpful! I *think* there is a wall pretty much aligned above it so probably is structural... So structural engineer it is first!

donemedosh

If you look at upstairs floorboards the joists will run 90deg to the direction of the floorboards. If the wall runs at the same direction as the joists then there is a good chance it is a supporting wall. This is a rough guide. Safe way is get a builder to quote you.

Section62

donemedosh said:

Safe way is get a builder to quote you.

No guarantee a builder will have the first clue or care about structural integrity of a building - there's a lot of cowboys out there who will happily knock a wall down and run (with the cash in their pockets first)

Getting a structural engineer to have a look is easier than finding a builder that can be trusted.

FreeBear

Section62 said:

donemedosh said:

Safe way is get a builder to quote you.

No guarantee a builder will have the first clue or care about structural integrity of a building - there's a lot of cowboys out there who will happily knock a wall down and run (with the cash in their pockets first)

Getting a structural engineer to have a look is easier than finding a builder that can be trusted.

And some builders will say that building regs don't apply and BC sign-off is not needed. By the time you find out that this wasn't true, they will be long gone, leaving you to pick up the pieces.

ChilliBob

Interesting, not looking to thread hijack but we are looking to remove a small wall in our en-suite upstairs to make it bigger. It's clearly a solid, probably original wall. We be looking to knock it down and rebuild it sbout 1.1m from its original position.

So, would something like this also need bc approval and a structural engineer, as opposed to just the bathroom company doing it all? 

weeg

ChilliBob said:

Interesting, not looking to thread hijack but we are looking to remove a small wall in our en-suite upstairs to make it bigger. It's clearly a solid, probably original wall. We be looking to knock it down and rebuild it sbout 1.1m from its original position.

So, would something like this also need bc approval and a structural engineer, as opposed to just the bathroom company doing it all? 

You need to find out if it's structural, beyond that you may need BC approval or not.

Section62

ChilliBob said:

Interesting, not looking to thread hijack but we are looking to remove a small wall in our en-suite upstairs to make it bigger. It's clearly a solid, probably original wall. We be looking to knock it down and rebuild it sbout 1.1m from its original position.

So, would something like this also need bc approval and a structural engineer, as opposed to just the bathroom company doing it all? 

It depends whether the wall is there simply to divide space into smaller rooms, or if the wall has other functions such as bearing a load, providing lateral support, or giving protection against the spread of fire and smoke.

There's a lot of myths about whether walls can be removed or not - most of the 'rules' propagated on the internet are misconceptions.

E.g. a solid wall isn't always structural, the direction floorboards run doesn't rule out a wall having a structural function.

To work out what is involved in removing a wall requires an understanding of how the whole structure works, and also a good knowledge of the building regs.

Motherofcelticdragons

Thanks for the comments.. Any vague ideas of costs? Worse case: structural engineer, rsj, moving water pipes (sink and dishwasher against the wall I want to remove)... I guess it's still a whole room reno as would benefit from a new door, and new flooring etc... 

aoleks

I got a structural survey AFTER I bought the house, it costed me £175...

An engineer came to my house and we discussed the entire structure. He told me what's load bearing, what's not, what can be demolished/moved/modified and where I would need RSJs should I go ahead with some of the planned work.

Worth every penny, the piece of mind (and understand of your house) is priceless!