Double glazing small claims court (against me)

IvanOpinion

We are currently in the process of replacing our windows and we got a free quote & survey when the salesman came out and priced the job. Our sales rep laid out the prices exactly for us, £X deposit, £Y for survey, £Z final payment.

The formal survey was extra cost (in our case £120) which is to finalise the design and verify sizes, colours etc. - but that was only organised AFTER we agreed, signed and paid a deposit.

cx6

yes i agree in my experience of dg you only get a survey after everything is agreed and a deposit paid - the surveyor's job is to provide accurate measurements etc

R088IE

Manxman_in_exile said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

@ro88ie says he got a quote in August 2020 for replacing windows and doors.  How would the supplier have been able to produce a quote in 2020 without sending somebody around to do some sort of survey of ro88ie's property?  Won't that in August 2020 be the free survey leading onto a free quote referred to on the supplier's website?

The £250 the supplier is now charging him for appears to be to do with more detailed measurement of openings etc for made to measure doors and windows, and the supplier seems to be treating that as part of contractual costs they have already incurred, they claiming that ro88ie went ahead with the purchase in April 2021.

So @ro88ie, did they already do free survey before providing a quote in August 2020, and was that quote free?

Just asking...

The builder I was intending to use recommended them. Seeing as he already had a good relationship with them, he arranged and handled the initial visit to my property in August 2020, they supplied him directly with a quote, which the builder then forwarded onto me.

Due to high demand, I had to wait until March/April 2021 for the builder to become available.

Then as mentioned in my original post, I visited the showroom, the survey was arranged, which then took place a few weeks after that. 

Manxman_in_exile

R088IE said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

@ro88ie says he got a quote in August 2020 for replacing windows and doors.  How would the supplier have been able to produce a quote in 2020 without sending somebody around to do some sort of survey of ro88ie's property?  Won't that in August 2020 be the free survey leading onto a free quote referred to on the supplier's website?

The £250 the supplier is now charging him for appears to be to do with more detailed measurement of openings etc for made to measure doors and windows, and the supplier seems to be treating that as part of contractual costs they have already incurred, they claiming that ro88ie went ahead with the purchase in April 2021.

So @ro88ie, did they already do free survey before providing a quote in August 2020, and was that quote free?

Just asking...

The builder I was intending to use recommended them. Seeing as he already had a good relationship with them, he arranged and handled the initial visit to my property in August 2020, they supplied him directly with a quote, which the builder then forwarded onto me.

Due to high demand, I had to wait until March/April 2021 for the builder to become available.

Then as mentioned in my original post, I visited the showroom, the survey was arranged, which then took place a few weeks after that. 

So wasn't that first survey that your builder arranged to get a free quote the free survey?  Why would you expect them to come out and do a second free survey when they've already given you a quote.  Didn't you think to yourself "They've already done this once for free.  Will they do it again?"

Jenni_D

Technically they supplied the survey and quote to the builder, not the OP.

R088IE

Manxman_in_exile said:

R088IE said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

@ro88ie says he got a quote in August 2020 for replacing windows and doors.  How would the supplier have been able to produce a quote in 2020 without sending somebody around to do some sort of survey of ro88ie's property?  Won't that in August 2020 be the free survey leading onto a free quote referred to on the supplier's website?

The £250 the supplier is now charging him for appears to be to do with more detailed measurement of openings etc for made to measure doors and windows, and the supplier seems to be treating that as part of contractual costs they have already incurred, they claiming that ro88ie went ahead with the purchase in April 2021.

So @ro88ie, did they already do free survey before providing a quote in August 2020, and was that quote free?

Just asking...

The builder I was intending to use recommended them. Seeing as he already had a good relationship with them, he arranged and handled the initial visit to my property in August 2020, they supplied him directly with a quote, which the builder then forwarded onto me.

Due to high demand, I had to wait until March/April 2021 for the builder to become available.

Then as mentioned in my original post, I visited the showroom, the survey was arranged, which then took place a few weeks after that. 

So wasn't that first survey that your builder arranged to get a free quote the free survey?  Why would you expect them to come out and do a second free survey when they've already given you a quote.  Didn't you think to yourself "They've already done this once for free.  Will they do it again?"

Manxman_in_exile said:

R088IE said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

@ro88ie says he got a quote in August 2020 for replacing windows and doors.  How would the supplier have been able to produce a quote in 2020 without sending somebody around to do some sort of survey of ro88ie's property?  Won't that in August 2020 be the free survey leading onto a free quote referred to on the supplier's website?

The £250 the supplier is now charging him for appears to be to do with more detailed measurement of openings etc for made to measure doors and windows, and the supplier seems to be treating that as part of contractual costs they have already incurred, they claiming that ro88ie went ahead with the purchase in April 2021.

So @ro88ie, did they already do free survey before providing a quote in August 2020, and was that quote free?

Just asking...

The builder I was intending to use recommended them. Seeing as he already had a good relationship with them, he arranged and handled the initial visit to my property in August 2020, they supplied him directly with a quote, which the builder then forwarded onto me.

Due to high demand, I had to wait until March/April 2021 for the builder to become available.

Then as mentioned in my original post, I visited the showroom, the survey was arranged, which then took place a few weeks after that. 

So wasn't that first survey that your builder arranged to get a free quote the free survey?  Why would you expect them to come out and do a second free survey when they've already given you a quote.  Didn't you think to yourself "They've already done this once for free.  Will they do it again?"

Manxman_in_exile said:

R088IE said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

@ro88ie says he got a quote in August 2020 for replacing windows and doors.  How would the supplier have been able to produce a quote in 2020 without sending somebody around to do some sort of survey of ro88ie's property?  Won't that in August 2020 be the free survey leading onto a free quote referred to on the supplier's website?

The £250 the supplier is now charging him for appears to be to do with more detailed measurement of openings etc for made to measure doors and windows, and the supplier seems to be treating that as part of contractual costs they have already incurred, they claiming that ro88ie went ahead with the purchase in April 2021.

So @ro88ie, did they already do free survey before providing a quote in August 2020, and was that quote free?

Just asking...

The builder I was intending to use recommended them. Seeing as he already had a good relationship with them, he arranged and handled the initial visit to my property in August 2020, they supplied him directly with a quote, which the builder then forwarded onto me.

Due to high demand, I had to wait until March/April 2021 for the builder to become available.

Then as mentioned in my original post, I visited the showroom, the survey was arranged, which then took place a few weeks after that. 

So wasn't that first survey that your builder arranged to get a free quote the free survey?  Why would you expect them to come out and do a second free survey when they've already given you a quote.  Didn't you think to yourself "They've already done this once for free.  Will they do it again?"

Based on their own language, they refer to the first visit as the quotation and the second visit as the survey.

Manxman_in_exile

Jenni_D said:

Technically they supplied the survey and quote to the builder, not the OP.

Yeah, but as presumably the building will have remained pretty much unchanged between supplying the quote "to" the builder in August 2020 and April 2021, I think it's pretty unreasonable for the OP to expect to get a second free survey in April 2021.

I think it's pretty clear from the OP's wording that the builder obtained the quote on behalf of the OP, and furthermore I suspect the OP probably asked him to do so.

R088IE said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but...

@ro88ie says he got a quote in August 2020 for replacing windows and doors.  How would the supplier have been able to produce a quote in 2020 without sending somebody around to do some sort of survey of ro88ie's property?  Won't that in August 2020 be the free survey leading onto a free quote referred to on the supplier's website?

The £250 the supplier is now charging him for appears to be to do with more detailed measurement of openings etc for made to measure doors and windows, and the supplier seems to be treating that as part of contractual costs they have already incurred, they claiming that ro88ie went ahead with the purchase in April 2021.

So @ro88ie, did they already do free survey before providing a quote in August 2020, and was that quote free?

Just asking...

The builder I was intending to use recommended them. Seeing as he already had a good relationship with them, he arranged and handled the initial visit to my property in August 2020, they supplied him directly with a quote, which the builder then forwarded onto me.

... 

Even if the OP didn't ask the builder to do so, he obviously knew that the builder had arranged a survey and had received a quote, which the builder then passed onto the OP.  I think it's pretty clear that they were the free survey and/or quote and that they were obtained for the OP

The visit the seller is trying to charge the OP for is obviously a more detailed survey to confirm all measurements etc.  The free survey must have come before the quote otherwise there would be nothing to base the quote on.

[Edit: I think the OP could have mentioned at the outset that he'd already had a survey done and a quote passed on to him through his builder]

But if I were the OP, I wouldn't be arguing about whether the survey was free or not, I'd be arguing that it wasn't necessary because I still hadn't decided whether to go ahead with the purchase or not.  The seller appears to believe that the OP had agreed to the purchase when the OP visited the seller's showroom in April 2021, but the OP says he was still undecided.  If that was the case, there was no need yet to confirm the measurements.

Ergates

MarvinDay said:

R088IE said:

Yeah, I definitely thought it was a job done when I saw that on their website, but the more I read it, the more I thought the wording was a bit ambiguous “free quote or a survey”, not “free quote & survey”

Forgetting about the windows and changing the wording slightly, what would your average person assume if they saw the following on a sign in a cafe:
"Free tea or a soft drink" 
Personally, I think that 99% (if not more) would read that to mean that you get the choice of either a free cup of tea or a free soft drink and I don't see that the survey/quote is any different.

That doesn't really work as an analogy - a "soft drink" is very much in the same vein as a cup of tea and it would be reasonable to expect them to be around the same price point (in this case, free).

However, most people will understand that quotation is not the same as a survey as the latter involves additional work - where as quotations are almost always free (I don't ever recalling seeing a business charge for quotes - certainly not for things like windows).

A closer analogy would be a free soft drink or a glass of brandy - as you'd expect a brandy to be more expensive than a soft drink.

R088IE

So I went ahead and sent this response-

Thank you for your reply explaining your position. It’s clear that we have similar recollections of my visit to your showroom, but I have a different understanding in respect of any contract being entered into. While I was there no order was placed, as I wasn’t in the position to place an order at that time without having made any decisions about what I wished to purchase. Also, at no point was I made aware of any cost, agreement, terms & conditions or clause written or otherwise stating there was a chargeable surveyor fee, irrespective of any potential order placed or not.

Your website states- “If you would like a free quotation or a survey for your home then please call”

And your Facebook & Cylex pages state- “For a free survey of your home and quotation for UPVC windows, doors or a conservatory please call”

Therefore I believe no payment is due, and I am under no legal obligations. I hope this clarifies my understanding of the situation, and doesn’t taint any potential future business between us. 

This was his reply-

Thank you for coming back to me, yes you are correct we do offer a free of charge quotation, I called out to meet [builder’s name] on site to carry out a survey of what is required, i.e. size and design so we can do the quotation, once we get the order, we arrange for a Fensa registered surveyor to carry out a technical and manufacturers survey, the surveyor is independent of us and carries out surveying for different windows and door companies, this is where the cost has incurred, I have charged you for what he charges us. If you would prefer, I can ask him to invoice you directly.

As Manxman_in_exile and Ergates have both mentioned, it looks like he does consider the first visit both the ‘survey & quote’. I would still disagree with that though based on their language, the first visit was always referred to as the ‘quote’ and the second the ‘survey’. 

Jenni_D

He's indicating that there was an order - was there? Did you get an order confirmation with T&Cs (maybe on the back)? Did you sign anything to confirm an order?