Support for vertical flue in loft?

beckstar1975

Hello - we've just had our annual boiler service (Vaillant Eco-tech - 15 years old but boiler itself fine) and whilst unofficially engineer said boiler itself is fine - flue is drawing well etc we've had a do not use notice placed on the boiler due to the fact that the flue is not supported by any brackets in the loft. 

A few years ago they riveted the flue during the service as it was a requirement that came in after we'd had the boiler installed. We were told today there is a risk, even though the flue is bolted, that a heavy load falling on it could knock the flue and release combusitble gasses. We only have bags of clothes in the loft and nowhere near the flue?

I'm trying to find any regs online that support we shouldn't use the boiler until the flue is supported - is this true for existing boilers or just a requirement for new installaations?

And is is something we can do ourselves pretty easily?

Also told we must not use our open fire (we rarely use it tbh) as we have a backplate that can be open or shut - I'm sure it's well intentioned but . . 

Argh, I hate this sort of thing.

Any help/advice/pointing to regs gratefully received - and opinion as to whether British Gas have gone for overkill and I can try and get this notice changed to advisory? Given the temps there's no way we can't use it - even if we do get brackets this weekend . . 

grumbler

beckstar1975 said:

I'm trying to find any regs online that support we shouldn't use the boiler until the flue is supported - is this true for existing boilers or just a requirement for new installaations?

And is is something we can do ourselves pretty easily?

I googled recently for some other question and it was support required once every meter.

I don't know whether this applies retrospectively, but I think it does.  If the flue is 'bolted', to the loft floor, I think there can be some truth in what they say. Loft joists are typically very weak and can flex if you are in the loft. Can it be fixed to the rafters instead?

Post a photo of the flue in the loft.

beckstar1975

Thank you - I'll get my husband to take a photo when he's done working as I'm not tall enough to reach I don't think it's bolted anywhere internally tbh - comes straight through floor, bends and then goes up through roof

Bendy_House

Hi Beck.

You can still use the boiler, can't you? Cool.

Does the flue need a support bracket in t'loft? I dunno, but most likely (almost certainly) 'yes'. Is it dangerous if you don't have one? Seemingly only if something heavy falls against it. So, provided you don't trip over and crash into the flue whilst fetching these bags of clothing, you should be fine. Does this mean you don't need to fit a bracket at all? Of course not - it seemingly should have one, so you should have one fitted.

In your position, I'd keep using the boiler without concern, but I'd also make a plan to have a bracket fitted at some point in the not too distant future.

Can you DIY this? Technically, yes. But obviously you'd need to do it 'properly'. If yer 'ubby is confident he is competent in doing this himself, he can fill his boots. If he isn't, then perhaps call a local recommended GasSafe, explain the issue and what's needed, and ask them to pop in and fix this on the way home from a 'proper' job over the next 6 months or so...

The open fire issue is also understandable, and they could well be quoting regs. But lots of fires - eg cast Victorian types - have flaps to close off the flue to prevent draughts when not in use. Are they all condemned because of this? I don't know, but I'd be surprised if they are

So, again, I'd personally keep using the fire, obviously ensuring the plate is open before lighting. And, if you forget, the smoke will soon inform you.

FreeBear

Bendy_House said: The open fire issue is also understandable, and they could well be quoting regs. But lots of fires - eg cast Victorian types - have flaps to close off the flue to prevent draughts when not in use. Are they all condemned because of this? I don't know, but I'd be surprised if they are

So, again, I'd personally keep using the fire, obviously ensuring the plate is open before lighting. And, if you forget, the smoke will soon inform you.

The gas boiler should be room sealed (i.e. draws its own air in from outside and vents the fumes out through the flue). Having an open fire should not affect the gas boiler in any way. It may be the engineer was getting confused over gas hobs & associated extractors...

To be on the safe side, well worth getting a Carbon Monoxide alarm (that is CO, not CO2). Should the open fire pump fumes back in to the room or the gas boiler develop a serious fault, the CO alarm could save a life.

Bendy_House

Agree with CO detector - nuts not to have one.

I suspect the open fire is a completely different issue to the boiler. If the fire's flue is shut off, then clearly it's a danger should you light a fire. (Tho' it should also be very obvious that the flue has been closed off.)

FreeBear

Getting back to the original problem...

beckstar1975 said: And is is something we can do ourselves pretty easily?

If you are OK with a bit of DIY, it should be fairly easy to fix a couple of 3x2 timbers close to the flue. Once securely fixed top & bottom, fit a support bracket every metre or so. You could box the flue in to reduce the risk of knocking it, but you'd need to ensure that any paneling can be easily removed to allow for inspection of the flue.

Another_Level

The information is in the literature packs that came with the boiler. Vaillant usually supply an installation/servicing booklet for the boiler and a flue installation instructions booklet.

In your loft the flue will have some flue pipe extensions and bends.  Vaillant mention in their flue booklet every flue extension needs to be clamped to the ceiling or wall.  
Its down to the onsite installer to decide if one clamp/bracket per extension is sufficient  

https://www.mrcentralheating.co.uk/vaillant-100mm-adjustable-flue-support-clips?gclid=CjwKCAiA5t-OBhByEiwAhR-hm8vOW8C3xlCQJK-3K0JCs_KjJeqilwxJ36mMm_ovyJ0mTjLnaDEx3RoCIWsQAvD_BwE

beckstar1975

Ooh - than you all - lots of food for thought.

The fire was mentioned as a separate issue, but again told not to use the fire until we have a new fixed backplate. Thankfully we don't rely on it so easy not to use it, but as we have carbon monoxide detectors on both floors and only use it for an hour or two whilst we're all awake we may decide to take the risk (the reason he gave is in case a door bangs shut and the resulting draught would cause the backplate to shut - we'd A hear it ; B it weighs a ton and isn't likely to bang shut and hasn't in the 15 years we've lived here and C it's obvious within seconds if the plate is shut and the alarm would sound).

Re the flue we'll just suck it up and get it attached, I think we may for peace of mind pay as husband has not the greatest record with DIY. We're hoping to do the loft this year and likely replace the boiler/heating so it only needs to be cheap n cheerful until then - but will look at getting whatever we settle on boxed in with viewing panels.

Thanks so much for your help, really appreciate it

bris

The unsupported flue has been flagged because it's in an area with a chance of being knocked so thats a call the engineer made as a risk so it's correct, it doesnt take much to damage an unsupported flue.

The open fire is an even bigger risk as the plate could close in use and poison the room. The plate must either be removed or fixed in the open position so it cant shut 

Flick85

I had this issue with the boiler in my flat. Basically, I kept using it just without insurance. I had annual services though, where I was told that it’s technically not in line with regulations and they stuck a label on to that effect. I did this for 7 years or so, and that point, I replaced the whole boiler and got the flue sorted at the same time. It was a bit of an expensive job as it required scaffolding as I am in a 3rd floor flat, but it was basically fine.