Mechanic Damaged my car, and lied. Refusing to fix problem. What can I do about it?

iancowley

The story goes like this. I had a problem over a year ago with a broken alternator, the battery warning light came on, and the battery died on a long journey. The alternator was replaced, and the car worked fine.

Recently, the battery warning light came on again, so I took it to the original garage. They looked over it, and said it could be the alternator being faulty (past its warranty) or could be the electrics, which they are not qualified to do, so rather than charge me for another alternator they recommended I speak with the "electrics expert" garage in my town.

So this is the guy I'm complaining about. I took it in, and I expected him to diagnose and fix the problem. He held it for a day and I went down to see what was wrong with it. He charged me £30 for a "diagnosis" and let me drive off, saying I might get a week or two driving it, the issue was definitely the alternator, and to come back in two weeks. He did not give me a receipt for the diagnosis work.

2nd visit, he held the car for 5 days and changed the alternator. £250, no receipt giving other than a scrap of paper with £250 written on. I took a look under the bonnet and the alternator did look new, but the previous one looked new, so I'm not sure if he did actually replace it. The plastic cover for the battery was also missing, which I retrieved on my 3rd visit. It was on the floor at the back of his garage for some reason.

He said he fully tested it, and it should be good to go, so I took it, thinking the £280 and time spent had fixed the problem.

3rd visit. After driving for 10 minutes the battery charging fault light came on again, so I took it back again, where he held the car for 7 days because he was waiting for "diagrams" and diagnostics to come back. 14 days total. No charge this time, I asked for receipts for all the work done, and he said it was all digital receipts, so I handed him my email and phone number and asked for him to send the receipts to there. He did not send any receipts. The 3rd time he said it was fully checked and 2nd time saying it was fixed.

I also noticed a load of dog hair on my passenger side, so he must have been driving around in my car with his dog. There's another £15 for a valet.

Driving for another 10 minutes, the battery light came on again, so I took it to another garage in another town. They took a look around and noticed a cable attached to the engine which clips onto the alternator had been glued in place with black silicone. They refused to touch it, because they didn't know what was going on underneath the glob of silicone and didn't want to do more damage, as this was attached to the engine and could be very expensive. They said I had two options, either source the cable from Renault which could be very expensive, or find it at a scrapyard in an exact type car which could be difficult.

The guy never mentioned this cable once, or any other cables, it was always the alternator.

I took it back to the guy and asked again for my receipts, and showed him the silicone on the cable, asking what it was. He played it down saying it was only a small cable, easy to fix, so I asked why did he let me drive off if it was easy to fix. He didn't have an answer and quickly said he'll get me a new cable, and call me. I told him that I went to another garage for a 2nd opinion, and they'll be doing the work from then on, so I know that it isn't as simple as switching the cable as he'd have to source it first, but he assured me he'll get one and call me.

I'm yet to receive a phone call and have not received any receipts for work, or evidence of diagnostic tests or that he purchased a new alternator. I doubt the problem was the alternator in the first place.

What are my grounds here, what can I do? After looking, I can't find him belonging to any associations or ombudsmen.

Ant555

Is the 'solution' to your battery light problem a new cable to replace the one that was stuck to the side of the engine? 

The different garage in the different town seem to suggest it looked a bit weird and wouldnt touch it but have they told you it is the solution to your battery charging issue.

I cant work out if the cable was completely disconnected, tucked out of the way by the auto electrician by using silicone, and causing the issue or if it was an intermittent connection caused by the way the cable is mounted.

MattMattMattUK

iancowley said:

The story goes like this. I had a problem over a year ago with a broken alternator, the battery warning light came on, and the battery died on a long journey. The alternator was replaced, and the car worked fine.

Recently, the battery warning light came on again, so I took it to the original garage. They looked over it, and said it could be the alternator being faulty (past its warranty) or could be the electrics, which they are not qualified to do, so rather than charge me for another alternator they recommended I speak with the "electrics expert" garage in my town.

So this is the guy I'm complaining about. I took it in, and I expected him to diagnose and fix the problem. He held it for a day and I went down to see what was wrong with it. He charged me £30 for a "diagnosis" and let me drive off, saying I might get a week or two driving it and the problem was the alternator, and to come back in a couple in two weeks. He did not give me a receipt for the diagnosis.

2nd visit, he held the car for 5 days and changed the alternator. £250, no receipt giving other than a scrap of paper with £250 written on. I took a look under the bonnet and the alternator did look new, but the previous one looked new, so I'm not sure if he did actually replace it. The plastic cover for the battery was also missing, which I retrieved on my 3rd visit. It was on the floor at the back of his garage for some reason.

He said he fully tested it, and it should be good to go, so I took it, thinking the £280 and time spent had fixed the problem.

3rd visit. After driving for 10 minutes the battery charging fault light came on again, so I took it back again, where he held the car for 7 days because he was waiting for "diagrams" and diagnostics to come back. 14 days total. No charge this time, I asked for receipts for all the work done, and he said it was all digital receipts, so I handed him my email and phone number and asked for him to send the receipts to there. He did not send any receipts. The 3rd time he said it was fully checked and 2nd time saying it was fixed.

I also noticed a load of dog hair on my passenger side, so he must have been driving around in my car with his dog. There's another £15 for a valet.

Driving for another 10 minutes, the battery light came on again, so I took it to another garage in another town. They took a look around and noticed a cable attached to the engine which clips onto the alternator had been glued in place with black silicone. They refused to touch it, because they didn't know what was going on underneath the glob of silicone and didn't want to do more damage, as this was attached to the engine and could be very expensive. They said I had two options, either source the cable from Renault which could be very expensive, or find it at a scrapyard in an exact type car which could be difficult.

The guy never mentioned this cable once, or any other cables, it was always the alternator.

I took it back to the guy and asked again for my receipts, and showed him the silicone on the cable, asking what it was. He played it down saying it was only a small cable, easy to fix, so I asked why did he let me drive off if it was easy to fix. He didn't have an answer and quickly said he'll get me a new cable, and call me. I told him that I went to another garage for a 2nd opinion, and they'll be doing the work from then on, so I know that it isn't as simple as switching the cable as he'd have to source it first, but he assured me he'll get one and call me.

I'm yet to receive a phone call and have not received any receipts for work, or evidence of diagnostic tests or that he purchased a new alternator. I doubt the problem was the alternator in the first place.

What are my grounds here, what can I do?

It is not clear that the mechanic actually damaged the car, or what damage you think they have done. 

The first garage replaced the alternator, that was a fairly logical course of action, especially of the OBD showed that the alternator was not producing a charge for the battery. 

The second garage probably ran a more in depth diagnostic, but got inconclusive results, possibly the same error code which showed an issue with the alternator, which he then replaced. I suspect that the "diagrams" he was waiting for might have been wiring diagrams, annoyingly these are not fixed when a model of car is designed, they often change over the course of production, so he may have been trying to get hold of these to trace the wiring issue he suspected. My suspicion is a wiring issue, that could be the cable with the silicone on, which could well be a neutral back to the engine, or something entirely separate, it could be damage elsewhere which leads to a charging issue, a short etc. I suspect you might be somewhat right with your diagnosis, the initial alternator may have been a problem (the battery going flat whilst driving is a fairly strong indicator of that), but that it may have also been part of a wider issue, which is why it is still ongoing. I have a ThinkCar 2 OBDII diagnostic module, it cost me £30 from Amazon and it lets me see any error codes, it might be worth you getting something similar so you can see what is happening, this might be a good start before you go to anyone else as you can then Google the error codes to get an idea of what work might need doing and how much it might cost. 

You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence".

iancowley

Ant555 said:

Is the 'solution' to your battery light problem a new cable to replace the one that was stuck to the side of the engine? 

The different garage in the different town seem to suggest it looked a bit weird and wouldnt touch it but have they told you it is the solution to your battery charging issue.

I cant work out if the cable was completely disconnected, tucked out of the way by the auto electrician by using silicone, and causing the issue or if it was an intermittent connection caused by the way the cable is mounted.

I don't know yet. But the cable wasn't broken and was never mentioned once by the first garage, or guy i'm complaining about. So I assume he was the one that broke it and tried to glue back in place with silicone. When I pointed at it, he knew exactly where the conversation was going and tried to play it off as nothing.

He must have snapped the cable, and attempted to cover it up hoping it would last a few months.

I'm still non the wiser to what the real problem is, as I doubt it was an alternator replacement. I just think he didn't diagnose it at all, took my £30 for doing nothing thinking it would be a simple alternator change as usual, then broke the cable switching the alternator. Bodged it back together, hoping it would hold for a couple of months.

Then when it wasn't the alternator and the problem persisted, that's when a closer inspection of his work came in to play which found his little mess up.

As far as I know he didn't fix anything, it's exactly the same problem which has yet to be diagnosed properly. He charged me for a diagnosis he didn't do, charged me for an alternator I didn't need, held my car for 14 days, and I found that he broke an expensive cable creating a new problem, and I'm £280 (plus £20 car valet) out of pocket.

iancowley

MattMattMattUK said:

The first garage replaced the alternator, that was a fairly logical course of action, especially of the OBD showed that the alternator was not producing a charge for the battery. 

The second garage probably ran a more in depth diagnostic, but got inconclusive results, possibly the same error code which showed an issue with the alternator, which he then replaced. I suspect that the "diagrams" he was waiting for might have been wiring diagrams, annoyingly these are not fixed when a model of car is designed, they often change over the course of production, so he may have been trying to get hold of these to trace the wiring issue he suspected. My suspicion is a wiring issue, that could be the cable with the silicone on, which could well be a neutral back to the engine, or something entirely separate, it could be damage elsewhere which leads to a charging issue, a short etc. I suspect you might be somewhat right with your diagnosis, the initial alternator may have been a problem (the battery going flat whilst driving is a fairly strong indicator of that), but that it may have also been part of a wider issue, which is why it is still ongoing. I have a ThinkCar 2 OBDII diagnostic module, it cost me £30 from Amazon and it lets me see any error codes, it might be worth you getting something similar so you can see what is happening, this might be a good start before you go to anyone else as you can then Google the error codes to get an idea of what work might need doing and how much it might cost. 

You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence".

The cable attached to the engine clips into the alternator. If he replaced the alternator, he must have unclipped the cable. He cannot have switched the alternator if it was already glued to the alternator because he needed to remove the cable, and he never mentioned it in 3 visits, only acknowledging when I pointed it out. The 2nd opinion garage saw it as soon as I lifted the bonnet.

So he either, didn't switch the alternator and the original mechanics bodged it, so he didn't even look under the bonnet and charged me for work he didn't do. Or he switched the alternator and broke the cable, then glued it onto the alternator letting me drive away hoping I wouldn't be back for a few months.

After the new alternator he put on didn't fix the problem, his 2nd diagnosis didn't fix it either. He just didn't know, is my guess, and was out of his depth past changing an alternator.

I can't imagine what might happen if he's fixing someone's brakes.

"You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence"."

Really? He doesn't have to give any receipts for work?

JJ_Egan

Really need to provide evidence of in the first place a replacement alternator or not .

MattMattMattUK

iancowley said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The first garage replaced the alternator, that was a fairly logical course of action, especially of the OBD showed that the alternator was not producing a charge for the battery. 

The second garage probably ran a more in depth diagnostic, but got inconclusive results, possibly the same error code which showed an issue with the alternator, which he then replaced. I suspect that the "diagrams" he was waiting for might have been wiring diagrams, annoyingly these are not fixed when a model of car is designed, they often change over the course of production, so he may have been trying to get hold of these to trace the wiring issue he suspected. My suspicion is a wiring issue, that could be the cable with the silicone on, which could well be a neutral back to the engine, or something entirely separate, it could be damage elsewhere which leads to a charging issue, a short etc. I suspect you might be somewhat right with your diagnosis, the initial alternator may have been a problem (the battery going flat whilst driving is a fairly strong indicator of that), but that it may have also been part of a wider issue, which is why it is still ongoing. I have a ThinkCar 2 OBDII diagnostic module, it cost me £30 from Amazon and it lets me see any error codes, it might be worth you getting something similar so you can see what is happening, this might be a good start before you go to anyone else as you can then Google the error codes to get an idea of what work might need doing and how much it might cost. 

You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence".

The cable attached to the engine clips into the alternator. If he replaced the alternator, he must have unclipped the cable. He cannot have switched the alternator if it was already glued to the alternator. So he either, didn't switch the alternator and the original mechanics did that so he charged me for work he didn't do. Or he switched the alternator and broke the cable, then glued it onto the alternator letting me drive away hoping I wouldn't be back for a few months.

After the new alternator he put on didn't fix the problem, his 2nd diagnosis didn't fix it either. He just didn't know, is my guess, and was out of his depth past changing an alternator.

"You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence"."

Really? He doesn't have to give any receipts for work?

Nope, there is not legal requirement for "receipts". The only legal requirement is for an invoice when the transaction between two VAT registered entities. 

The wire in question sounds like the exciter wire, it not being functional would also explain why the alternator was not charging the battery. These to not seem to be expensive, from a quick Google £30-100, depending on the car they can be relatively easy to fit, or a total nightmare, so you might be able to do it yourself in ten minutes, or it might take someone skilled an hour or more. It would be reasonably likely that the alternator has been replaced twice, but that the cable is still the first one, which could well have caused the initial fault, gluing the cable may well have worked temporally, it might have even worked for years (eg. it could have been like that for as long as you have owned the car, and was now working it's way lose, causing the problem, potentially why it worked, with the first garage gluing it back on). 

From a diagnostic perspective OBD would have just shown that there was no current delivery from the alternator, you would have to ask a mechanic, but my guess is a first would be that after a cursory inspection of the cables on the alternator they would replace the alternator, they might even never look at the other end. 

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that there were no issues with either alternator, the cable went the first time and was either glued by the first garage, or when they changed the alternator the cable got wiggled back into the right place. At some point before it failed the second time it worked loose and/or out of alignment again, the alternator was then replaced again, with the cable either then being temporally in the right place, or glued into place at that point, if it was not at the before. 

iancowley

MattMattMattUK said:

The wire in question sounds like the exciter wire, it not being functional would also explain why the alternator was not charging the battery. These to not seem to be expensive, from a quick Google £30-100, depending on the car they can be relatively easy to fit, or a total nightmare, so you might be able to do it yourself in ten minutes, or it might take someone skilled an hour or more. It would be reasonably likely that the alternator has been replaced twice, but that the cable is still the first one, which could well have caused the initial fault, gluing the cable may well have worked temporally, it might have even worked for years (eg. it could have been like that for as long as you have owned the car, and was now working it's way lose, causing the problem, potentially why it worked, with the first garage gluing it back on). 

From a diagnostic perspective OBD would have just shown that there was no current delivery from the alternator, you would have to ask a mechanic, but my guess is a first would be that after a cursory inspection of the cables on the alternator they would replace the alternator, they might even never look at the other end. 

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that there were no issues with either alternator, the cable went the first time and was either glued by the first garage, or when they changed the alternator the cable got wiggled back into the right place. At some point before it failed the second time it worked loose and/or out of alignment again, the alternator was then replaced again, with the cable either then being temporally in the right place, or glued into place at that point, if it was not at the before. 

Thanks for the help. I've not heard back from him so It looks like I'm sourcing it myself and have no clue.

The picture below is not a Megane but it looks like it could be the same thing. The little black clip, with white sticker is in the same position on my car so could be the thing. On my car you can't see that clip, it's covered with black silicone.

https://www.renaultforums.co.uk/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.renaultforums.co.uk/attachments/dsc03444-jpg.182951/

Just one question, if it was glued on how can he have changed the alternator, and why didn't he ever mention this cable after having my car for 14 days and always telling me it's the alternator itself and not cabling?

jimjames

iancowley said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The first garage replaced the alternator, that was a fairly logical course of action, especially of the OBD showed that the alternator was not producing a charge for the battery. 

The second garage probably ran a more in depth diagnostic, but got inconclusive results, possibly the same error code which showed an issue with the alternator, which he then replaced. I suspect that the "diagrams" he was waiting for might have been wiring diagrams, annoyingly these are not fixed when a model of car is designed, they often change over the course of production, so he may have been trying to get hold of these to trace the wiring issue he suspected. My suspicion is a wiring issue, that could be the cable with the silicone on, which could well be a neutral back to the engine, or something entirely separate, it could be damage elsewhere which leads to a charging issue, a short etc. I suspect you might be somewhat right with your diagnosis, the initial alternator may have been a problem (the battery going flat whilst driving is a fairly strong indicator of that), but that it may have also been part of a wider issue, which is why it is still ongoing. I have a ThinkCar 2 OBDII diagnostic module, it cost me £30 from Amazon and it lets me see any error codes, it might be worth you getting something similar so you can see what is happening, this might be a good start before you go to anyone else as you can then Google the error codes to get an idea of what work might need doing and how much it might cost. 

You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence".

"You do not have any entitlement to "receipts" or "evidence"."

Really? He doesn't have to give any receipts for work?

The time for receipts or invoice is before payment. Get an invoice and pay it. No invoice, no payment. 

MattMattMattUK

iancowley said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The wire in question sounds like the exciter wire, it not being functional would also explain why the alternator was not charging the battery. These to not seem to be expensive, from a quick Google £30-100, depending on the car they can be relatively easy to fit, or a total nightmare, so you might be able to do it yourself in ten minutes, or it might take someone skilled an hour or more. It would be reasonably likely that the alternator has been replaced twice, but that the cable is still the first one, which could well have caused the initial fault, gluing the cable may well have worked temporally, it might have even worked for years (eg. it could have been like that for as long as you have owned the car, and was now working it's way lose, causing the problem, potentially why it worked, with the first garage gluing it back on). 

From a diagnostic perspective OBD would have just shown that there was no current delivery from the alternator, you would have to ask a mechanic, but my guess is a first would be that after a cursory inspection of the cables on the alternator they would replace the alternator, they might even never look at the other end. 

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that there were no issues with either alternator, the cable went the first time and was either glued by the first garage, or when they changed the alternator the cable got wiggled back into the right place. At some point before it failed the second time it worked loose and/or out of alignment again, the alternator was then replaced again, with the cable either then being temporally in the right place, or glued into place at that point, if it was not at the before. 

Thanks for the help. I've not heard back from him so It looks like I'm sourcing it myself and have no clue.

The picture below is not a Megane but it looks like it could be the same thing. The little black clip, with white sticker is in the same position on my car so could be the thing. On my car you can't see that clip, it's covered with black silicone.

https://www.renaultforums.co.uk/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.renaultforums.co.uk/attachments/dsc03444-jpg.182951/

Just one question, if it was glued on how can he have changed the alternator, and why didn't he ever mention this cable after having my car for 14 days and always telling me it's the alternator itself and not cabling?

Which end was glued, the end that fixes to the alternator, or the end that fixes to the engine/runs off into the rest of the electrical system? There is only one cable onto the alternator, which is that plug/socket you have pictured, it is standardised (two pin, there is also a three pin), one cable runs to the battery, the other to the engine itself (there is then another cable which completes the circuit elsewhere). My guess might be that the clip is broken, it is designed to lock in place, so someone used silicone to hold it in place rather than either replace the cable, or because they are thick. Was the silicone actually in a place where it could have held the socket in place, or was it just sort of blobbed in a mess, silicone is an insulator so if any is inside the socket/on the connector on the alternator it will stop it working as well? If it was at the alternator end of the cable then it could have only been done by the last person to replace the alternator. 

Having had a look online, I am not sure I would want to attempt replacing that cable on a Megane, it looks like an absolute pig of a job. I am not a mechanic, but I am fairly happy to learn things (two weeks ago I replaced the ABS sensors on my car, the garage told me it was £120 per sensor, I paid £140 for all four for genuine Bosch parts and it took me two hours, but a huge part of that was removing and then putting back on all four wheels) but the way the cable runs through the engine bay and with all the other wiring looms it looks like a total nightmare to change, so much so that the best option might actually be to splice the cable. My guess with replacing that cable properly might be a "parts £50, labour £500" situation, you also have the issue that even having done that, it might not actually solve the problem. 

If it were me I would clean all the silicone, off, make sure that all the connectors are clean and see if it can still connect reliably, then make sure that with the cable in place the battery charges properly, it would also then be clear how damaged the connector actually is and if the issue is at that point, or somewhere else in the wiring. That does however mean you would need to be comfortable doing that kind of thing. 

iancowley

MattMattMattUK said:

iancowley said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The wire in question sounds like the exciter wire, it not being functional would also explain why the alternator was not charging the battery. These to not seem to be expensive, from a quick Google £30-100, depending on the car they can be relatively easy to fit, or a total nightmare, so you might be able to do it yourself in ten minutes, or it might take someone skilled an hour or more. It would be reasonably likely that the alternator has been replaced twice, but that the cable is still the first one, which could well have caused the initial fault, gluing the cable may well have worked temporally, it might have even worked for years (eg. it could have been like that for as long as you have owned the car, and was now working it's way lose, causing the problem, potentially why it worked, with the first garage gluing it back on). 

From a diagnostic perspective OBD would have just shown that there was no current delivery from the alternator, you would have to ask a mechanic, but my guess is a first would be that after a cursory inspection of the cables on the alternator they would replace the alternator, they might even never look at the other end. 

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that there were no issues with either alternator, the cable went the first time and was either glued by the first garage, or when they changed the alternator the cable got wiggled back into the right place. At some point before it failed the second time it worked loose and/or out of alignment again, the alternator was then replaced again, with the cable either then being temporally in the right place, or glued into place at that point, if it was not at the before. 

Thanks for the help. I've not heard back from him so It looks like I'm sourcing it myself and have no clue.

The picture below is not a Megane but it looks like it could be the same thing. The little black clip, with white sticker is in the same position on my car so could be the thing. On my car you can't see that clip, it's covered with black silicone.

https://www.renaultforums.co.uk/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.renaultforums.co.uk/attachments/dsc03444-jpg.182951/

Just one question, if it was glued on how can he have changed the alternator, and why didn't he ever mention this cable after having my car for 14 days and always telling me it's the alternator itself and not cabling?

Which end was glued, the end that fixes to the alternator, or the end that fixes to the engine/runs off into the rest of the electrical system? There is only one cable onto the alternator, which is that plug/socket you have pictured, it is standardised (two pin, there is also a three pin), one cable runs to the battery, the other to the engine itself (there is then another cable which completes the circuit elsewhere). My guess might be that the clip is broken, it is designed to lock in place, so someone used silicone to hold it in place rather than either replace the cable, or because they are thick. Was the silicone actually in a place where it could have held the socket in place, or was it just sort of blobbed in a mess, silicone is an insulator so if any is inside the socket/on the connector on the alternator it will stop it working as well? If it was at the alternator end of the cable then it could have only been done by the last person to replace the alternator. 

Having had a look online, I am not sure I would want to attempt replacing that cable on a Megane, it looks like an absolute pig of a job. I am not a mechanic, but I am fairly happy to learn things (two weeks ago I replaced the ABS sensors on my car, the garage told me it was £120 per sensor, I paid £140 for all four for genuine Bosch parts and it took me two hours, but a huge part of that was removing and then putting back on all four wheels) but the way the cable runs through the engine bay and with all the other wiring looms it looks like a total nightmare to change, so much so that the best option might actually be to splice the cable. My guess with replacing that cable properly might be a "parts £50, labour £500" situation, you also have the issue that even having done that, it might not actually solve the problem. 

If it were me I would clean all the silicone, off, make sure that all the connectors are clean and see if it can still connect reliably, then make sure that with the cable in place the battery charges properly, it would also then be clear how damaged the connector actually is and if the issue is at that point, or somewhere else in the wiring. That does however mean you would need to be comfortable doing that kind of thing. 

Exactly where that clip is on the photo, attached to the alternator. You cannot see the clip. It's a mound of black silicone covering it, with a wire popping out.

", so someone used silicone to hold it in place rather than either replace the cable, or because they are thick. "

They are thick. That's what the 2nd opinion garage told me, and they refused to touch it until I took it back and asked what was going on underneath the blob.

So now I'm stuck.

That's why I think the guy is lying. Because when I pointed it out, he started acting all sheepish then tried to play it off as nothing, a silly little cable, easy to replace. But as you and the other garage say, it's not that simple.