Constant arguments over money

TBagpuss

IF it is important to him to have an interest in the house then one option would be for you to put it into joint names but own it as 'tenants in common' with a declaration of trust setting out your respective interests - so that if (say) the house is currently worth £500K and you have a £200K mortgage, then the declaration of trust could set out that you own 80% and he owns 20%  ((your 300K equity = £60%, plus half the remining value = 20%) and that each of you will be responsible for paying 50% of the mortgage from your share of the proceeds on sale 

You can have a separate cohabitation agreement which explicitly sets out that you will each be responsible for 50% of the mortgage payments and that if/when the house is sold, the funds are distributed as to 60% to you (your current equity) then clearing the mortgage, then the balance split 50/50. You could if you wished also include provision that if either of you is unable to pay your 50% of the monthly payments, or fails to do so, then unless otherwise agreed in writing, any extra payments made by the other as a result will be treated as a loan and repayable (with interest), on the sale of the property if not repaid earlier. 

I do also think you might benefit from sitting down with a third party to talk about your financial arrangements and how you communicate and your expectations of each other.

For instance, if you keep finances separate then him taking out a loan or cutting his hours are his business alone, but if those things then mean that he cannot afford to pay his shares of bills, shared holidays etc. then they become your business, as at that point he is asking you to subsidize his lifestyle.

Maybe the way forward is to agree am amount for him to pay, which includes an element of rent plus a proportion of the bills, and have an agreement that yes, it is your house, he has no interest in it so no, he doesn't pay towards maintenance etc. as his position is more akin to a tenant or lodger than a co-owner  -  but the amount he contributes should be realistic - look at what he would pay for a room in a house share locally , and start from there. Agree that you will cover the costs of your joint kids equally, too.

You could also be clear that your are open to agreeing on putting the house into joint names but that before you go down that route you need to address the issues with communications and different attitudes to money.

A third and more radical option might be to suggest that he rents a place of his own nearby, and you continue to have a relationship but not to live together.  It might reduce the number of things you have to fall out over and improve the relationship. Two homes are more expensive than one, but it can be a very practical solution if the main areas of friction are around money and the house.  

Lorandee

Pollycat said:

Lorandee said:

My partner and I met whilst he was going through a messy divorce and he subsequently went into an IVA. He is a high earner but they were hit by the flop in property market Nd had loans etc. I had my own house which had about £80k equity in it at the time. He has always said he does not want to own my house. My house is mine and his pension is his. He is protective over the pension as his wife took £60k of it on their divorce.  We have always had seperate accounts due to his financial history. We have been together for 10 years. We have 3 children and he has 2 other children who are now adults and live with their mother. 
When we had the kids I went on a career break for 5 years and we lived off his wage. My mortgage is low. Less than £300 a month. I've now started earning again £1500 a month. So basically he has been income rich and I property rich which I thought makes a great partnership. He just can't get over the house not being 'ours' he recently took out  £17k loan without telling me. When I asked him about it he said we are financially seperate so its not my concern. I'm not sure what I'm even asking for but does anyone have a similar setup with their partner and are we condemned to arguing all of the time? He's just reduced his hours and shaved about £1000 off his monthly income so where he was paying 2/3 of the bills so should he now pay less due to him reducing his hours without even consulting me because its 'his income? 

Re the bits in bold:
these are contradictory.

It sounds like he's suddenly taken stock of where he is financially and wants 'in' to ownership of the house.
I'd be asking why he's changed his stance on the house.
Especially as he seems to think his money is his and it's perfectly acceptable to take out a substantial loan and reduce his working hours (which presumably means he'll contribute less to the household) without consulting you at all.

Like pinkshoes, it would have been a deal-breaker for me too.
But we have a very different attitude to money and open-ness about it.


Have you even talked about this in a calm manner?

Thanks for your reply. I agree its contradictory and this is my main issue as we had the discussion prior to having kids etc. He wanted to protect the rest of his pension and I wanted to do the same with my equity. It seemed sensible and we said we would sign a prenuptial to this effect.  No signs of marriage BTW.
When I did have the kids and had mat leave/career break etc I did leave sorting the finances out to him as he also wanted me to be off to look after the kids (0,1 and 4) and he set strict budgets etc and our bills were always paid. Things were tight but we managed. 
The reduction in his hours hasn't effected me in terms of the amount he pays for the bills/holidays/food and we receive just under £200 child benefits which pays for clothes/activities etc. 

We have sat down calmly on many occasion but it always ends up in disagreements and arguments.  Je suggested him taking a  mortgage to buy into the house, me use surplus as  a deposit to buy a rental etc but all seems so complicated and my equity is about 340 with a 60 mortgage. It feels like it would complicate things by having him buy in and I dont want to be in a position that I have to sell the house if we split because the mortgage is low and I could afford on my own. 

Lorandee

TBagpuss said:

IF it is important to him to have an interest in the house then one option would be for you to put it into joint names but own it as 'tenants in common' with a declaration of trust setting out your respective interests - so that if (say) the house is currently worth £500K and you have a £200K mortgage, then the declaration of trust could set out that you own 80% and he owns 20%  ((your 300K equity = £60%, plus half the remining value = 20%) and that each of you will be responsible for paying 50% of the mortgage from your share of the proceeds on sale 

You can have a separate cohabitation agreement which explicitly sets out that you will each be responsible for 50% of the mortgage payments and that if/when the house is sold, the funds are distributed as to 60% to you (your current equity) then clearing the mortgage, then the balance split 50/50. You could if you wished also include provision that if either of you is unable to pay your 50% of the monthly payments, or fails to do so, then unless otherwise agreed in writing, any extra payments made by the other as a result will be treated as a loan and repayable (with interest), on the sale of the property if not repaid earlier. 

I do also think you might benefit from sitting down with a third party to talk about your financial arrangements and how you communicate and your expectations of each other.

For instance, if you keep finances separate then him taking out a loan or cutting his hours are his business alone, but if those things then mean that he cannot afford to pay his shares of bills, shared holidays etc. then they become your business, as at that point he is asking you to subsidize his lifestyle.

Maybe the way forward is to agree am amount for him to pay, which includes an element of rent plus a proportion of the bills, and have an agreement that yes, it is your house, he has no interest in it so no, he doesn't pay towards maintenance etc. as his position is more akin to a tenant or lodger than a co-owner  -  but the amount he contributes should be realistic - look at what he would pay for a room in a house share locally , and start from there. Agree that you will cover the costs of your joint kids equally, too.

You could also be clear that your are open to agreeing on putting the house into joint names but that before you go down that route you need to address the issues with communications and different attitudes to money.

A third and more radical option might be to suggest that he rents a place of his own nearby, and you continue to have a relationship but not to live together.  It might reduce the number of things you have to fall out over and improve the relationship. Two homes are more expensive than one, but it can be a very practical solution if the main areas of friction are around money and the house.  

Thanks for the reply I really appreciate your advice. I will have a think about the declaration of trust. I think I would end up with 90% ownership. The mortgage is only about 370 and I think he already pays about 200 on top of bills which he tells me to put aside for the house costs. A lot to think about.

littlegreenparrot

Lorandee said:

Pollycat said:

Lorandee said:

My partner and I met whilst he was going through a messy divorce and he subsequently went into an IVA. He is a high earner but they were hit by the flop in property market Nd had loans etc. I had my own house which had about £80k equity in it at the time. He has always said he does not want to own my house. My house is mine and his pension is his. He is protective over the pension as his wife took £60k of it on their divorce.  We have always had seperate accounts due to his financial history. We have been together for 10 years. We have 3 children and he has 2 other children who are now adults and live with their mother. 
When we had the kids I went on a career break for 5 years and we lived off his wage. My mortgage is low. Less than £300 a month. I've now started earning again £1500 a month. So basically he has been income rich and I property rich which I thought makes a great partnership. He just can't get over the house not being 'ours' he recently took out  £17k loan without telling me. When I asked him about it he said we are financially seperate so its not my concern. I'm not sure what I'm even asking for but does anyone have a similar setup with their partner and are we condemned to arguing all of the time? He's just reduced his hours and shaved about £1000 off his monthly income so where he was paying 2/3 of the bills so should he now pay less due to him reducing his hours without even consulting me because its 'his income? 

Re the bits in bold:
these are contradictory.

It sounds like he's suddenly taken stock of where he is financially and wants 'in' to ownership of the house.
I'd be asking why he's changed his stance on the house.
Especially as he seems to think his money is his and it's perfectly acceptable to take out a substantial loan and reduce his working hours (which presumably means he'll contribute less to the household) without consulting you at all.

Like pinkshoes, it would have been a deal-breaker for me too.
But we have a very different attitude to money and open-ness about it.


Have you even talked about this in a calm manner?

Thanks for your reply. I agree its contradictory and this is my main issue as we had the discussion prior to having kids etc. He wanted to protect the rest of his pension and I wanted to do the same with my equity. It seemed sensible and we said we would sign a prenuptial to this effect.  No signs of marriage BTW.
When I did have the kids and had mat leave/career break etc I did leave sorting the finances out to him as he also wanted me to be off to look after the kids (0,1 and 4) and he set strict budgets etc and our bills were always paid. Things were tight but we managed. 
The reduction in his hours hasn't effected me in terms of the amount he pays for the bills/holidays/food and we receive just under £200 child benefits which pays for clothes/activities etc. 

We have sat down calmly on many occasion but it always ends up in disagreements and arguments.  Je suggested him taking a  mortgage to buy into the house, me use surplus as  a deposit to buy a rental etc but all seems so complicated and my equity is about 340 with a 60 mortgage. It feels like it would complicate things by having him buy in and I dont want to be in a position that I have to sell the house if we split because the mortgage is low and I could afford on my own. 

Mmmm. You get to stay at home and take care of the children, and I'm going to guess the bulk of the housework/cooking/laundry etc etc and get a 'strict budget' for your trouble? 
Sounds like some aspects of this have been going on for a while. 

You have had lots of good advice about how to manage the property finances. I just wanted to come in and say that you also need to think carefully about what you want, and what you are comfortable with. 
He doesn't get to strop off and re-arrange everything you have previously agreed because he threw his toys out of the pram. 
It needs to be a proper discussion where he also listens to you and your valid concerns. 

kimwp

Why doesn't he buy the rental rather than buying into your house and you buying the rental?

sarahevie1

I have a partner (unmarried- he won't marry). We have completely separate finances. We both work full time. Similar incomes. 

He owns 'his house'. Its now a rental. I own my house outright and did prior to him moving in and I've got a couple of rental properties also in my name. 

I pay all the bills/food/maintenance at my house. When we go out sometimes I Pay, sometimes he does. We don't  argue about it as the financial arrangement works for us. We don't pay into a joint pot so spend on what we like. We dont consult each other as its all personal money. We both have company pensions and would be personally independent in the event of a split. 

We looked at moving last year, as if we pooled finances we could get a better house and i thought it'd be nice to choose/own together.

But ultimately my partner felt my equity is too high so we could never be joint owners in a 50/50 sense. My partner didn't want his equity tied up with mine as he felt it would be messy in a split. Our current house meets  our needs so there was no need to go through the hassle

Separate finances works for us. 

Lorandee

kimwp said:

Why doesn't he buy the rental rather than buying into your house and you buying the rental?

This was my point. It would 'make him feel happier to know he owns half the family home.' We have had further discussions about it all and have decided to stick with completely seperate finances. He will be on quite a tight personal budget for the next 2 years and I have said that I will give myself a similar budget and any extra I will be getting an emergency fund set up for the house and anything else would most likely be going to our kids anyway. 

Lorandee

sarahevie1 said:

I have a partner (unmarried- he won't marry). We have completely separate finances. We both work full time. Similar incomes. 

He owns 'his house'. Its now a rental. I own my house outright and did prior to him moving in and I've got a couple of rental properties also in my name. 

I pay all the bills/food/maintenance at my house. When we go out sometimes I Pay, sometimes he does. We don't  argue about it as the financial arrangement works for us. We don't pay into a joint pot so spend on what we like. We dont consult each other as its all personal money. We both have company pensions and would be personally independent in the event of a split. 

We looked at moving last year, as if we pooled finances we could get a better house and i thought it'd be nice to choose/own together.

But ultimately my partner felt my equity is too high so we could never be joint owners in a 50/50 sense. My partner didn't want his equity tied up with mine as he felt it would be messy in a split. Our current house meets  our needs so there was no need to go through the hassle

Separate finances works for us. 

Its good to see that your arrangement works well for you and that seperate finances can work smoothly. Also good to know its not just us who talk about these things frankly in terms of in the event of a split.  We have spoken at length about it all over the last few days and will be staying financially seperate and in any other sense together. Discussions in this group have been really helpful. Money isn't easy to talk about to family/friends so this has been great.