Santander Christmas Eve Double Payments

Grumpy_chap

Daliah said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Daliah said:

Grumpy_chap said:

What are the actual rules on this?

I agree that the money should be returned to Santander.

It is no different to Apple shipping 130 million iPhones by mistake - they would be returnable under unsolicited goods rules.

However, if an individual made an error inputting the incorrect recipient details, banks say that is just tough luck and all they can do is request the money is returned, but nothing they can do if it is not volunteered.

There should be a consistent approach between customer data entry error and bank data entry error.

see the T&Cs I posted earlier in this thread

But that only applies to Santander account holders.

Many of the recipients of these payments will be at other banks.

I might be wrong, I had understood that this thread is about Santander having made double payments to Santander accounts. 

Santander have made double deposits of mostly payroll money to many recipients at many banks.  Some of the payments will be in to Santander accounts, most won't be.

Daliah

Grumpy_chap said:

Daliah said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Daliah said:

Grumpy_chap said:

What are the actual rules on this?

I agree that the money should be returned to Santander.

It is no different to Apple shipping 130 million iPhones by mistake - they would be returnable under unsolicited goods rules.

However, if an individual made an error inputting the incorrect recipient details, banks say that is just tough luck and all they can do is request the money is returned, but nothing they can do if it is not volunteered.

There should be a consistent approach between customer data entry error and bank data entry error.

see the T&Cs I posted earlier in this thread

But that only applies to Santander account holders.

Many of the recipients of these payments will be at other banks.

I might be wrong, I had understood that this thread is about Santander having made double payments to Santander accounts. 

Santander have made double deposits of mostly payroll money to many recipients at many banks.  Some of the payments will be in to Santander accounts, most won't be.

Sorry, my bad.

I don't know what rules apply there

Daliah

ooh-ooh.  Trouble in the banks' playpens. They don't appear to be entirely sure whether they could, or should, smash Santander to pieces whilst they are down, or whether they should just behave as grown-ups who recognise that mistakes do happen at times. After all, processing the same file twice in a production environment is obviously not what grown-ups would do 



https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/39451/santander-accidentally-sends-customers-130m

pinkteapot

My husband's company banks with Santander and was affected. They paid staff (standard monthly PAYE) on the 24th. The payments into employee's accounts were duplicated on the 25th, but the company has only been debited once. 

We bank with HSBC and didn't hear a peep from them. The second payment has been debited back out of our account overnight. 

A colleague of his banks with Barclays and has received a text saying the payment will be reversed next week and asking her to make sure she leaves available funds in the account. 

Grumpy_chap

It was interesting on BBC Breakfast today when they interviewed a lady who said that to not allow the money to be reclaimed by Santander would be theft and it was likely that criminal charges would be pursued for anyone who tried to avoid making the repayment.

I fully agree with the above.  Except, if an individual makes such a mistake, the banks simply shrug and say nothing can be done unless the recipient of the incorrect funds willingly agrees to make the repayment.

The banks need to take the same approach if it is an individual that made the mistake in online banking, rather than actually being the bank.

eskbanker

Grumpy_chap said:

It was interesting on BBC Breakfast today when they interviewed a lady who said that to not allow the money to be reclaimed by Santander would be theft and it was likely that criminal charges would be pursued for anyone who tried to avoid making the repayment.

I fully agree with the above.  Except, if an individual makes such a mistake, the banks simply shrug and say nothing can be done unless the recipient of the incorrect funds willingly agrees to make the repayment.

It's theft to dishonestly retain a wrongful credit regardless of whether it's an individual or a bank who initiated it, but I believe that Santander would experience the same legal issue that individual senders do, i.e. that they won't know who to pursue and the recipients' banks aren't obliged to disclose such details without a court order, although Santander will no doubt find it easier to pay for that if the alternative was to wave goodbye to many millions.

Edit: actually, on thinking about it, if these payments were (duplicates of those) initiated by Santander business customers, Santander might legitimately be able to request lists of recipient names and addresses from the companies concerned, or even ask those companies to assist with the recovery, although probably ought to expect some resistance if they tried that!

Daliah

There's a big difference between the Santander mistake, and when payments by individuals are disputed.

In the Santander case, nobody could have argued that it was not a genuine mistake.

In the case of an individual claiming they made an incorrect payment, it is only right and proper that the recipient does have a say. Otherwise online payments could be open to endless abuse - e.g. fraudsters buys an expensive item, pays by bank transfer, receives the item, asks their bank to retrieve the payment as they "made a mistake". This would leave the seller high and dry. OK, the seller would have an address for the fraudster, and a name that may or may not be the fraudster's actual name. By the time they / the Police would turn up to retrieve the item, the fraudster could long have legged it.

So I think the existing policy for individuals, which requires the payee's agreement for the return of the funds, is justified, and the fairest option.

Grumpy_chap

eskbanker said:

Grumpy_chap said:

It was interesting on BBC Breakfast today when they interviewed a lady who said that to not allow the money to be reclaimed by Santander would be theft and it was likely that criminal charges would be pursued for anyone who tried to avoid making the repayment.

I fully agree with the above.  Except, if an individual makes such a mistake, the banks simply shrug and say nothing can be done unless the recipient of the incorrect funds willingly agrees to make the repayment.

It's theft to dishonestly retain a wrongful credit regardless of whether it's an individual or a bank who initiated it,

I agree fully - I can see how I carelessly used the "Except" there.  What I was trying to do was link between the different behaviour of banks when it is their own mistake compared to individuals making the mistake.  I did not mean to say "it is theft except when an individual made the mistake".