Care home costs, thresholds, and joint accounts

nezpottage

Hi all.  Hopefully this is the right place to post, and that I can get some advice.

So my mother has recently been moved to a care home after her dementia has meant we are struggling to care for her at home.  At the moment the local authority is sorting out the fees for that, as my mum finances are under the min threshold.

My question related to the joint account she has with my Father.  So long story short, my mum hasn't worked for maybe 40 years, and all my Dad's income went into a joint account they had for income in, and bills out.  Since retirement for the both of them, Mum's pension has been getting paid into a single account in her name, but my Dad's pension has been getting paid into the joint account.  With savings etc over time, there is a decent amount in there.

The local authority have done the financial checks, and say that as it's a joint account, they class 50% of any money on there as my Mum's, and as such, with her now being in the care home, any extra fee's etc CANNOT be taken out of her money, either in her single account or the joint account. 

In truth, that means that nearly 100% of the money in the joint account has been put there by my Dad, but now he can only spend / move half of it, as i understand.

Does this sound as though I have the right end of the stick on this, and is there anything at all that my Dad can do with any of 'his wife's money' from the joint account?

We are going to sort him a single account in his name, and in theory move his pension payments to that account, and maybe move "his" half of the money over to it, but I wanted some advice on if we can do that, and if there are options with the other half of the savings?

Thanks in advance

pmlindyloo

nezpottage said:

Hi all.  Hopefully this is the right place to post, and that I can get some advice.

So my mother has recently been moved to a care home after her dementia has meant we are struggling to care for her at home.  At the moment the local authority is sorting out the fees for that, as my mum finances are under the min threshold.

My question related to the joint account she has with my Father.  So long story short, my mum hasn't worked for maybe 40 years, and all my Dad's income went into a joint account they had for income in, and bills out.  Since retirement for the both of them, Mum's pension has been getting paid into a single account in her name, but my Dad's pension has been getting paid into the joint account.  With savings etc over time, there is a decent amount in there.

The local authority have done the financial checks, and say that as it's a joint account, they class 50% of any money on there as my Mum's, and as such, with her now being in the care home, any extra fee's etc CANNOT be taken out of her money, either in her single account or the joint account. 

In truth, that means that nearly 100% of the money in the joint account has been put there by my Dad, but now he can only spend / move half of it, as i understand.

Does this sound as though I have the right end of the stick on this, and is there anything at all that my Dad can do with any of 'his wife's money' from the joint account?

We are going to sort him a single account in his name, and in theory move his pension payments to that account, and maybe move "his" half of the money over to it, but I wanted some advice on if we can do that, and if there are options with the other half of the savings?

Thanks in advance

Have a read of this link:

Paying for care in a care home if you have a partner (ageuk.org.uk)

Joint bank accounts are indeed split 50/50.  

lisyloo

your mums money can be spent on anything for her e.g.
days out, taxis, clothing, glasses, toiletries, wheelchair, magazines, shampoo & set, bingo manicure, recliner chair etc.

have you asked the local authority whether you can appeal the 50/50 decision if you have evidence?
it might be worth asking a less vested interest like age concern - they have a lot of facts sheets

Are there extra fees for the home? And can your dad afford them?

Does she have periods of lucidity?
does anyone have power of attorney for her? E.g. who is operating her joint account?

calcotti

pmlindyloo said:Have a read of this link:

Paying for care in a care home if you have a partner (ageuk.org.uk)
Joint bank accounts are indeed split 50/50.  

As always, AgeUk factsheet is excellent. The only wriggle room I can see is
"The charging regulations give the local authority the power to treat you as having an equal share in jointly held capital, such as a joint bank account, except where there is evidence that your share is unequal."

Whether unequal contributions to the account will enable an argument that the share is unequal I don't know. Unfortunately it will come down to the local authority reaching a decision.

Clearly having separate bank accounts going forward is the right thing to do.

lisyloo said: does anyone have power of attorney for her? E.g. who is operating her joint account?

The joint account can be operated by dad. It's the single account in her name that would require PoA

nezpottage said:

.. as it's a joint account, they class 50% of any money on there as my Mum's, and as such, with her now being in the care home, any extra fee's etc CANNOT be taken out of her money, either in her single account or the joint account. 

I don't understand that bit. This is not an subject I know much about but it doesn't seem logical for it not to be possible for her money to be used to pay her fees. 

OP, if they are receiving any means tested benefits take note of the information in the AgeUK fact sheet about the way these are impacted.

lisyloo

Sorry I meant poa for the single account.

it definitely correct that she cannot pay her own “top up” fees. I can’t explain why.

How come she has been put somewhere without the finances being sorted (I mean the top up), was it an urgent situation?
I would have thought under normal circumstances (gradual deterioration) you’d want to ensure she goes into somewhere affordable (and yes have been through it).

calcotti

lisyloo said: it definitely correct that she cannot pay her own “top up” fees. I can’t explain why.

That is bizarre.

lisyloo

https://www.independentage.org/get-advice/support-care/paying-for-care/care-home-top-up-fees

https://www.carehome.co.uk/advice/what-are-top-up-fees-in-a-care-home

Can I pay my own care home top-up fee?

Usually you cannot pay your own top-up fee. This is because to be eligible for council funding, you should not be able to afford to self-fund your care.

calcotti

Is NHS continuing healthcare a possibility?
PCrown_A (alzheimers.org.uk)
Sadly I note that it can be difficult to get for dementia - see page 16.

p00hsticks

calcotti said:

lisyloo said: it definitely correct that she cannot pay her own “top up” fees. I can’t explain why.

That is bizarre.

I think it's standard - top-up payments have to come from a third party, not the recipient of the care. I've never understood why either, but perhaps lisyloo's links above go some way to explaining it.

calcotti

lisyloo said:

https://www.independentage.org/get-advice/support-care/paying-for-care/care-home-top-up-fees

https://www.carehome.co.uk/advice/what-are-top-up-fees-in-a-care-home

Can I pay my own care home top-up fee?

Usually you cannot pay your own top-up fee. This is because to be eligible for council funding, you should not be able to afford to self-fund your care.

Thanks for the links. Must be a very common situation where somebody could pay a bit towards their care but can't afford the full cost and I still can't get my head around it. The best I can manage is that the top up fee is supposed to be the cost of an enhanced care placement and the logic is that if the person being cared for can afford something this should first go towards the basic package which would reduce the local authority commitment. That would make sense if the need for top up fees was exceptional but I imagine it is now very common given that we know that what local authorities will pay falls short of what care homes need.

(Apologies to OP - going slightly off track with these musings.)

lisyloo

calcotti said:

Is NHS continuing healthcare a possibility?
PCrown_A (alzheimers.org.uk)
Sadly I note that it can be difficult to get for dementia - see page 16.

Usually dimentia sufferers require personal care often due to an ability to make safe decisions.
if it comes with medical needs then there may be funded nursing care (FNC?).
this would go to the care home for the nursing part and wouldn’t really otherwise affect the fees.
It’s not clear whether this is a residential or nursing home but either way as the FNC pays for the nursing it won’t affect the residential fees.
my MIL got FNC but it didn’t make any difference to us.