Victorian bay window subsidence crack (1.3-3.7 mm); should I pull out?

Section62

mattheus said:

Rosa_Damascena said:

mattheus said:

@greenface2 Did a level 3 survey. Had I not pointed to the bay window crack he would not have even mentioned it. Impossible to get any concrete response from him. I point blank asked him "is it me or does the brickwork on house front wall seem distorted?" -- to which he accuses me of giving a "leading question" and refused to give a straight answer. The closer I look at it the more the connection seems present between the sagging main front wall and bay crack on same vertical; which can't be caused by "differential movement" of foundations by definition. If both things are moving means there is subsidence throughout either due to geology or some kind of groundwater / groundmoisture anomaly.

Doesn't sound like a brilliant surveyor to me. On a property like this you should be able to recoup more than the cost of the survey in faults that require correction. Having said the 30% you mooted is unrealistic.

Agree. I think getting 50k off (11%) is more realistic.

The problem is the survey you have doesn't really support that kind of discount on the one hand, and if the surveyor didn't spot what was happening to the brickwork on the front, then what else might have been missed - meaning a discount of only £50k might not reflect the true extent of the work required.

You need a better quality survey to make a properly informed decision.  I agree with stuart45 that a bressumer beam issue could be the cause, but it isn't the only possibility, and a decent survey should have picked up the fault and advised further investigations, especially when combined with the cracks in the bay wall.

GDB2222

I've two general comments to add:

We bought an Edwardian house where the bay had been underpinned. The work was much, much more than just underpinning the bit where the subsidence was. They underpinned the whole bay, then strengthened the foundations of a large chunk of the front of the house, so as to blend in the underpinnings.

The problem is that the new underpinned foundations on the bay are much deeper than the foundations on the main house. So, unless it’s blended in, you again risk differential movement. 

This was quite a long time ago, so the techniques might have improved.

My other comment is that two houses near me have been underpinned recently. In both cases, the owners moved out into rented accommodation whilst the work was done. In one case, they were out of the house for six months. The other one, they have only been out a few weeks, so far. Of course, the work required may be very different to the house that you are looking at.

GDB2222

Oh, and you should check the insurance situation. It’s essential to declare the subsidence, as otherwise you may not be covered. If premiums are higher, that’s a valid reason to ask for money off the price of the property.

greenface2

Rosa_Damascena said:

mattheus said:

@greenface2 Did a level 3 survey. Had I not pointed to the bay window crack he would not have even mentioned it. Impossible to get any concrete response from him. I point blank asked him "is it me or does the brickwork on house front wall seem distorted?" -- to which he accuses me of giving a "leading question" and refused to give a straight answer. The closer I look at it the more the connection seems present between the sagging main front wall and bay crack on same vertical; which can't be caused by "differential movement" of foundations by definition. If both things are moving means there is subsidence throughout either due to geology or some kind of groundwater / groundmoisture anomaly.

Doesn't sound like a brilliant surveyor to me. On a property like this you should be able to recoup more than the cost of the survey in faults that require correction. Having said the 30% you mooted is unrealistic.

I agree with you . A level 3 is a full structural survey afaik . You normally pay good money for one of them . I paid for a structural survey in 2004 on this property and it said Get a damp report . Get a wood worm report / get a roof report ect . woah there mr rics . you do it 

mattheus

@Doozergirl I am with you that subsidence in Victorian properties is structuraly and cosmetically fixable and no big deal if properly maintained. I think what freaks people out is the fact that either they or their buyers when they come to sell might not be able to get mortgage on the property (at least that's what the scary articles online say). Would that not freak you out? Having said that, if high-quality, colour-matched repointing is done, I don't see how a future buyer would even know there has ever even been a crack.

Doozergirl

mattheus said:

@Doozergirl I am with you that subsidence in Victorian properties is structuraly and cosmetically fixable and no big deal if properly maintained. I think what freaks people out is the fact that either they or their buyers when they come to sell might not be able to get mortgage on the property (at least that's what the scary articles online say). Would that not freak you out? Having said that, if high-quality, colour-matched repointing is done, I don't see how a future buyer would even know there has ever even been a crack.

If it's fixed then there is no issue with getting a mortgage and yes, if it isn't even visible then there isn't even a clue that it may have been.  

A house not having a problem shouldn't freak anyone out...

Phil4432

They seem to have kept their roof in good nick... and then neglected the front of their property.

That would lead me to question what else has been neglected.  You could end up uncovering problem after problem.  Or, that may be the only problem.

Our bay window (1930's 3 bed semi) has a crack and can be seen from the inside and was filled in at some point.  The surveyor went into detail about it, saying that he didn't feel like it was subsidence and to keep an eye on it.
   Got a builder to install a channel drain next to the bay window (house lower than street, not good with regards to drainage.  Especially on clay)  and no water pools there.  The crack hasn't changed in the 7 years we've been there.
   Looks like the gradient is taking water away from the front of the house, so you shouldn't have that problem.

As Freebear pointed out, some idiot may have paved in the air bricks.  This is so common and bloody stupid. 

I'd walk away from this.  At least, you need a better surveyor who can comment on that bay window.  But really, if that cracks been left neglected for sometime its not good.  Can the crack be seen from the inside?

mattheus

@Phil4432 No way of telling. There is wallpaper covering it form inside. If it's not water and there is no vegetation; what could have caused it; I guess differential movement.

stuart45

The weight from above is going down the stone jambs and putting a point load on the wall which is pushing the wall out a bit. If the weight from the jambs was spread onto a stone or concrete bill it would be better.

Phil4432

mattheus said:

@Phil4432 No way of telling. There is wallpaper covering it form inside. If it's not water and there is no vegetation; what could have caused it; I guess differential movement.

Unless you can ascertain to your satisfaction that this is not subsidence, I'd walk away.

You definitely need a different surveyor.