How does overtime work if it's not in your contract?

[Deleted User]

Just asking out of curiosity. 

I used to work in banking and when I was in an entry level position, I would be paid overtime. I had a fixed salary, as opposed to a hourly wage, and it would be worked out from that. When I got promoted into management, there was no overtime or mention about overtime in my contract (as much as I can remember). 

A job I had a couple years ago, I remember being asked during the interview if I had any problem working after hours. In that job, I would often go to events, networking meetings and others non-optional bits of work outside of my normal hours but again mo overtime. 

Just curious if there's a legal requirement for it which gets ignored by most "professional" work places. 

Diamandis

Its up to you to agree with your employer,  providing you're still earning at least minimum wage and within working time directive.

lincroft1710

There is a legal requirement and that is that when divided by the actual hours worked your pay does fall below the National Minimum/Living Wage.

74jax

I used to always ask if they would rather pay me or have me take the time off. A lot of the time I was then not needed to work extra but mostly they preferred me taking the time off, which really suited me more than the extra pay. 

JGB1955

I never claimed overtime but took it as TOIL (with their agreement).  That's sometimes worth far more than the cash.  Emergency happens?  Take it as TOIL (with agreement).  

TELLIT01

In many jobs, once you start climbing the tree, there is no automatic entitlement to pay or TOIL for overtime hours.  Certainly don't assume one or other will always be available.  I had varying experiences. In one job we were suddenly told that an on-call rota was being introduced and there would be no on-call payment (that changed when amazingly nobody ever heard their phone ring in the evening or overnight).  In another my boss wandered over to my desk one day and commented on the amount of overtime I'd had to do and telling me to take a day off to compensate.  Two very different mindsets.

MalMonroe

I always thought it was in a contract of employment. They are usually worded to the effect that the employer can call upon you to do any work they ask of you, within reason and within your remit. Including overtime. But in the jobs I've had (mostly higher education and NHS) I was able to take the appropriate time off if I stayed late at a manager's request. It worked out fine. As long as an employer isn't just taking the mick it usually works out fine if both sides are prepared to give and take. The one time I worked for a private company, if any overtime was required I took time off in lieu. Saved a lot of messing all round.

Acas says - 

By law an employee cannot work more than an average 48 hours a week, unless either of the following apply:

• they agree to work more hours (known as opting out of the weekly limit)
• they do a job not covered by the law on working hours (sometimes known at the working time regulations)

Obviously people want to be paid for the hours they work - or be given time off in lieu.

If employers ever become too demanding, there's always Acas to refer to, since all employees have rights.

Sandtree

Deleted_User said:

Just curious if there's a legal requirement for it which gets ignored by most "professional" work places. 

Only two possible "legal requirements" which are minimum wage and the worktime directive (the later you can sign away your rights to if you want).

Generally as you go up the corporate ladder your income and responsibility goes up plus you have more latitude to decide how/when you work. In practice that more often means doing more than your contracted 40hrs of work most weeks but there are a few that manage to routinely do less (knew one that did way less but was exceptionally careful with his team selection).

For middle management when there is a need for a big push then sometimes overtime or time in lieu is used but too many struggle to take their 30 days + bank holidays as it is (in my experience) so more time off isnt really that helpful. The one time I've dealt with overtime was when doing a very large deal and it was 7 days a week, 12-16 hours a day for about 5-6 weeks (finally signing the contract at 4am before our 5:30am deadline). There the few perms all got overtime (and a glass trophy) and us contracts could just bill for the extra 2 days a week at standard rate.  Those that know me joked that I probably drank my weight in champagne to celebrate but to be honest, I just wanted sleep (and about a bottle of champagne)

mark55man

My psychological (ie unwritten) contract is that if i have to work harder or longer during the week then I suck it up, its part of the role, but if (like the poster above) it starts going into weekends then I will start taking TOIL after the deadline has passed. I am careful to check with each new manager at the start of each new project - no one has had a problem. 

Also if the work is lower (as happens at some times of the year) then pre-pandemic I was not expected in the office, but was expected to WFH.  Post pandemic WFH has been a bit of a blur TBH, but for me its been super busy so I take care not to overdo it.   I saw a cartoon whose punchline was "do I work from home or live at work" - bit close to the bone that

TBagpuss

AS others have said, it's very common , especially as you get more senior, that you are paid a salary and you work the hours needed to get the job done.

As long as you are not working so many hours that your pay goes below minimum wage or that you break the working time directive then your are not automatically entitled to any additional pay.

most employers will have a policy.

This may be that more senior staff don't get paid o/t or TIL, often on the basis that they are managing their own time to a greater extent, and that they are deemed to be paid for a role where they may need to work outside the standard hours from time to time.

Where I work, we do pay overtime to support staff (everyone is salaried but it's not difficult to work out a notional hourly rate based on the salary - however, any overtime has to be authorised in advance, and it is explicit that you are not entitled to be paid of you work extra hours without authorisation. 

I think other than minimum wage, the only legal issues would b if you were asked to work overtime and told you'd be paid, and then the employer tried to retrospectively change that, and it would be on the basis that the verbal request and offer of overtime were a variation of your contract and they were bound to honour it, so you would effectively be stating that they were in breach of contract. But you would only be entitled to recover the payment for the work you'd done before they changed their mind, there would br nothing to stop them stating that extra hours would not be paid extra in the future 

happyc84

why should anyone do unpaid overtime? Just pay your staff for the work and time required for the job.

Too many bad structures in Management expect staff to work extra for free,