House gets very cold (<13degrees) and retains no heat

Doozergirl

BUFF said:

Bendy_House said:

17oC is not a comfortable living temp. That barely takes the chill off the air. As soon as you turn off that 'heating', then of course the house temp is going to plummet; you haven't got the house's fabric up to a temp where it'll stabilise and return that warmth in a gentle manner to you when the heating goes off.

I disagree. Obviously you don't swan about in a T-shirt & shorts at that temp, indeed, you wear an extra layer. Plus you get used to it (if you were not already Northern ).

In the 1970s we heated our houses to ~14C on average. It wasn't until ~1988 that we broached 15C on average.

Historic Environment Scotland recommend heating older (<1919) houses to 16C (with additional spot radiant heat if required). Post-WW1 houses tend to be slightly better thermally than pre-WW1 but both tend to have higher thermal mass than modern, highly insulated construction. But you do insulate (loft, floor even if only carpets, dg/secondary glazing), draughtproof & use curtains/shutters to retain that as much as possible.
SWI would make a big difference but is rarely cost-effective to the owner unless grant aided. 

I only take a coat off outside at 16C! 

I'd be frozen to the spot indoors at that temperature.  

BUFF

Doozergirl said:

BUFF said:

Bendy_House said:

17oC is not a comfortable living temp. That barely takes the chill off the air. As soon as you turn off that 'heating', then of course the house temp is going to plummet; you haven't got the house's fabric up to a temp where it'll stabilise and return that warmth in a gentle manner to you when the heating goes off.

I disagree. Obviously you don't swan about in a T-shirt & shorts at that temp, indeed, you wear an extra layer. Plus you get used to it (if you were not already Northern ).

In the 1970s we heated our houses to ~14C on average. It wasn't until ~1988 that we broached 15C on average.

Historic Environment Scotland recommend heating older (<1919) houses to 16C (with additional spot radiant heat if required). Post-WW1 houses tend to be slightly better thermally than pre-WW1 but both tend to have higher thermal mass than modern, highly insulated construction. But you do insulate (loft, floor even if only carpets, dg/secondary glazing), draughtproof & use curtains/shutters to retain that as much as possible.
SWI would make a big difference but is rarely cost-effective to the owner unless grant aided. 

I only take a coat off outside at 16C! 

I'd be frozen to the spot indoors at that temperature.  

So 16 is fine with an extra layer then?

You are:

a) most likely not Northern
b) too young to have been brought up pre-central heating

TELLIT01

I was definitely around in the pre-central heating days, and remember ice on the inside of windows.  I have no desire to experience those days again.  During the colder months we have the heating set to 20 during the day and 16 overnight.  We are in a 1930's semi with cavity wall and loft insulation.  The temperature overnight never drops by more than 1 or 2 degrees even in the coldest weather.

Doozergirl

BUFF said:

Doozergirl said:

BUFF said:

Bendy_House said:

17oC is not a comfortable living temp. That barely takes the chill off the air. As soon as you turn off that 'heating', then of course the house temp is going to plummet; you haven't got the house's fabric up to a temp where it'll stabilise and return that warmth in a gentle manner to you when the heating goes off.

I disagree. Obviously you don't swan about in a T-shirt & shorts at that temp, indeed, you wear an extra layer. Plus you get used to it (if you were not already Northern ).

In the 1970s we heated our houses to ~14C on average. It wasn't until ~1988 that we broached 15C on average.

Historic Environment Scotland recommend heating older (<1919) houses to 16C (with additional spot radiant heat if required). Post-WW1 houses tend to be slightly better thermally than pre-WW1 but both tend to have higher thermal mass than modern, highly insulated construction. But you do insulate (loft, floor even if only carpets, dg/secondary glazing), draughtproof & use curtains/shutters to retain that as much as possible.
SWI would make a big difference but is rarely cost-effective to the owner unless grant aided. 

I only take a coat off outside at 16C! 

I'd be frozen to the spot indoors at that temperature.  

So 16 is fine with an extra layer then?

You are:

a) most likely not Northern
b) too young to have been brought up pre-central heating

No, it would not be fine with an extra layer, even.  I'd be moving outside with an extra layer, I'd just be cold indoors.  

You're just about right on a and b but a lot of us are! 

I think older houses need to be heated to 16 degrees to prevent mould etc.  I don't think it's a suggestion that they shouldn't be heated above it ☺️ 

I love old houses but I don't think I'll ever be able to live in one again.   Better for looking at now than living in.  

Still interested in seeing these kitchen photos from the OP. 

coffeehound

Has it got a cellar too?

ft23

TELLIT01 said:

With effectively a glass extension on the house you will lose massive amounts of heat.  Can you post a photo?  Some options may be suggested when the situation can be viewed.

 (Excuse the greyed out kitchen sink mess but) - if you can see from the pics, the kitchen is L-shaped. The door next to the table to the sitting room can be closed (it is usually) but no way to close off from the side of the original galley kitchen. 

ft23

Bendy_House said:

The kitchen extension is an obvious candidate for part of the problem, but this is coupled with the simple fact (as I see it) that you are just not heating your house enough.

17oC is not a comfortable living temp. That barely takes the chill off the air. As soon as you turn off that 'heating', then of course the house temp is going to plummet; you haven't got the house's fabric up to a temp where it'll stabilise and return that warmth in a gentle manner to you when the heating goes off.

How much work are you prepared to do to this house? It'll be disruptive to some degree, but not shockingly so.

I presume the floors are suspended T&G boards? Obviously lifting them to add insulation, or gaining access to it from below if the foundation void is large enough, is the best solution. But if this is - understandably - too much like hard work, then you can still transform the floor by first ensuring it's draught proof; seal with mastic between each floor board and especially around the floor perimeter, and then lay insulating fibreboard over the whole caboodle before adding the flooring of your choice - carpet, laminate, whatevs. Draughts will be the single biggest element of cooling from your floor, so sort that as a priority.

Then, the walls... Line the external walls with insulated plasterboard. Depending on room size - how much space you can afford to lose - this can be as little as 35mm overall thickness, or as much as you want. Even 35mm stuff will transform the insulation value of your house.

And then there's the ceiling. Good chance the downstairs ceilings have nothing above them but a ventilated void, so if you can cope with the hassle of having them overboarded with the same stuff, then great.

The above will transform your house.

And then turn the bludy heat up, will ya? :-)

Yes, 17oC ain't going to endear you to many friends - I guess you could call it a test of loyalty... So, while you have visitors, bite the financial bullet and turn the heat up.

It'll be interesting to see what type of conservatory you have - can you post some photos (or the house particulars) as asked above?

This is helpful, thank you. Noted we'll need to bite the bullet financially and set the thermostat higher (though last weekend we had a friend&baby visited and set the thermostat to 21, and within a day of them leaving, the house dropped to below 15 again).

Yes the floorboards are suspended in the original house and solid in the extension. There is an access hatch in the living room to about 90cm height so we are hoping to insulate prior to laying carpet but struggling to find any contractor to do so! If not, do you know if its possible to put this insulating fibreboard straight over the floorboards, and then carpet? would this cause any issues with the height or level of the floor? Noted on the mastic around the floor perimeter - thank you.

In terms of the walls, do you know if its possible to just do the external walls? The rooms are not very big so hesitant to lose floorspace but feel the exterior wall of the bedrooms /downstairs could be done. 
Likewise with the ceiling - never heard of this before and have no idea how to do such a thing! Is it just stick the plasterboard over the current ceiling, and then re-paint?

I am up for doing what we can - pre-painting and on a budget, so thanks in advance for the help!

Bendy_House

BUFF said:

I disagree. Obviously you don't swan about in a T-shirt & shorts at that temp, indeed, you wear an extra layer. Plus you get used to it (if you were not already Northern ).

That's actually very funny; I do 'swan' (actually, shiver) around in shorts and T-shirt. In a 5 mile radius, that's just me and the Post-folk.

My wife, eyes rolling, explains to perturbed folk we pass by, "He's Scottish,.."

Once inside, the heating goes to 20oC...

neilmcl

ft23 said:

Have recently moved to a 1920's semi, solid brick house with a glass conservatory extension and a loft conversion (both done in 2000). Aware the house is old - as typical in the area (West Yorks) but when the heating is off during the day and overnight, the house seems to retain no heat at all - has been at 12.5 degrees the last few days. For about 3 hrs each morning & evening the heating is set to 17 degrees but as soon as it is off, the temperature drops.
I dread to think of the cost of heating it from 12.5-17 degrees twice a day, and guests still find 17 degrees cold. 

I have visited friends houses of the same age and there's doesn't get as cold - so dont think this is normal!? Are there any cheap-ish/ quick things we can do to test why its retaining no heat, and how to improve it?

As a starter we know:
- the house has air vents - we have stuck foam insulation in these except the bathroom one
- living room has a floor vent - we are planning to carpet over this
- we use thick heavy curtains in all rooms, and keep the doors closed
- heating is off in the guest bedrooms, and doors closed
- windows are all double glazed, boiler about 9yrs old

We cant afford EWI but would be keen to hear from anyone who has had suspended floor insulation done - and recommendations of contractors.

Thanks in advance

But I bet your friends don't just have the heating on to 17 for a few hours a day. You have a solid brick walled house which isn't going to retain much heat on it's own and it doesn't really surprise me that the temp will drop that much if you're barely heating it up in the morning/evening. I have a similar aged property and have the heating on to 18 degrees for a couple of hours in the morning and 19 degrees from 5pm till 11 and it will still drop 3 or 4 degrees when the heating is off during the winter.

The minimum my thermostat is set to is 16C during the day and 14C overnight but rarely does it get that low at night.

Bendy_House

ft23 said:

This is helpful, thank you. Noted we'll need to bite the bullet financially and set the thermostat higher (though last weekend we had a friend&baby visited and set the thermostat to 21, and within a day of them leaving, the house dropped to below 15 again).

Yes the floorboards are suspended in the original house and solid in the extension. There is an access hatch in the living room to about 90cm height so we are hoping to insulate prior to laying carpet but struggling to find any contractor to do so! If not, do you know if its possible to put this insulating fibreboard straight over the floorboards, and then carpet? would this cause any issues with the height or level of the floor? Noted on the mastic around the floor perimeter - thank you.

In terms of the walls, do you know if its possible to just do the external walls? The rooms are not very big so hesitant to lose floorspace but feel the exterior wall of the bedrooms /downstairs could be done. 
Likewise with the ceiling - never heard of this before and have no idea how to do such a thing! Is it just stick the plasterboard over the current ceiling, and then re-paint?

I am up for doing what we can - pre-painting and on a budget, so thanks in advance for the help!

That's a nice room, and I'd have thought that during the day the solar gain would more than compensate for heat loss.

But, it really is tooo much glass. Not sure how cost-effective it would be, but to insulate most of that roof, leaving perhaps three remaining glazed sections would possibly help. But that's a separate issue.

Yes, for the house walls you'd only do the 'external' ones - nothing to be gained by doing internals. This should make a significant difference, even the thinnest insulated board.

For the floor, it's a case of 'anything' you add will make a difference. So even 8mm low-density fibreboard - often sold as an 'underlay' for laminate - would likely make a solid difference. But, yes, that's a further 8mm you'd need to compensate for - perhaps trimming the bottoms of doors a bit. But the main issue with suspended T&G floorboards is the draught. I know this... :-( To sort the floors is easy and cheap. A no-brainer.

The ceilings are the other obvious source of heat loss. 'Top' floors are easy to sort - go up into the loft and pile on the rolls of insulation. Ground floors, tho', are often an anomaly in this respect - folk don't realise that they are usually effectively ventilated via the wall cavities, so all you actually have to keep the heat in (and the ceiling is the warmest part of the room) is a single layer of p'board, or plaster-and-lath. Having said that, I don't know how much heat is actually lost via a typical ground-floor ceiling.

Yes, if it was worth doing, 'all' that would need doing would be to screw insulated p'board over the existing, into the ceiling joists. Tape and fill the joints, or have it fully skimmed. Quite a bit of work for an inexperienced DIYer, tho', and even if skilled.

Sometimes, tho', you just have to tell yourself - Winter is going to cost me an extra £200-300, but at least we'll be comfy - so turn that dial...