Redundancy whilst on secondment

saqibm786

Hi All,

I'm in a particular situation with my employer. I'm sure they've done all their due diligence to make sure their processes are correct but it doesn't fully sit right with me so just thought I would sound it out with more knowledgable people.

The situation:

Around 24 months ago I was offered a secondment to another part of the business. It was a short term project (6-9 months) and then I would return to role. As covid struck the project ended early and I was asked to work on some other projects and do some paternity cover in the same team. It was due to end in September last month but there was some huge organisational changes happening (due to a merger) and my secondment manager said it may be best for me to wait till after these changes before returning, so my secondment was extended again to December. My manager was then one of the first to be made redundant and now I have been put at risk because my seconded role is not required anymore.

My old role that I was seconded from still exists and I have been asked to apply for it alongside the person who is currently in their own secondment covering my old role. One of us will be made redundant on the 10th December once the consultation and interviews finish.

Is this fair? Most people whose roles still exist untouched post organisational changes were mapped directly to their new roles. I however have to duke it out with my cover (frustratingly a really close colleague) even though the role itself is not impacted. I feel like doing my secondment has screwed me over a little bit as if I had not done it I would not be at risk.

It's a big organisation so I'm sure they've consulted various legal bodies and made sure everything is above board but I just thought I would check anyway as I'm feeling down about it all.

Thanks.

Thrugelmir

saqibm786 said:

Is this fair? Most people whose roles still exist untouched post organisational changes were mapped directly to their new roles. I however have to duke it out with my cover (frustratingly a really close colleague) even though the role itself is not impacted. I feel like doing my secondment has screwed me over a little bit as if I had not done it I would not be at risk.

Your employer wishes to cut headcount. Selecting the best candidate for the role is perfectly reasonable. This doesn't mean that you may not be offered an opportunity to work elsewhere. There'll be far bigger changes underway , you are merely a single piece of the jigsaw. 

rara32

If your permanent post is still available then I am not sure why you would be in a redundancy situation. I am wondering if there maybe some further info that you haven't given. Redundancy would usually mean that work of a particular kind has ceased or reduced. Has your permanent role changed? i.e. the role has been reviewed and so everyone is having to apply for their jobs again or perhaps you and your colleague covering were doing the same role but now there is only one role whereas before there were two? Normally if you are on secondment when it ends you just return to your permanent role it doesn't matter that the secondment role is redundant as it was only yours temporarily. If your colleague covering you was in a completely different role before (i.e. not a similar role to you) I don't see how you can have to apply for your permanent role. Can you confirm what the reason is that you have been given for the redundancy situation?

saqibm786

rara32 said:

If your permanent post is still available then I am not sure why you would be in a redundancy situation. I am wondering if there maybe some further info that you haven't given. Redundancy would usually mean that work of a particular kind has ceased or reduced. Has your permanent role changed? i.e. the role has been reviewed and so everyone is having to apply for their jobs again or perhaps you and your colleague covering were doing the same role but now there is only one role whereas before there were two? Normally if you are on secondment when it ends you just return to your permanent role it doesn't matter that the secondment role is redundant as it was only yours temporarily. If your colleague covering you was in a completely different role before (i.e. not a similar role to you) I don't see how you can have to apply for your permanent role. Can you confirm what the reason is that you have been given for the redundancy situation?

Hi rara32 thanks for taking the time to respond! WIll try to give a much detail as possible.

Job A - My permanent role
Job B - My secondment role

• I was in Job A for about 18 months before being offered a secondment, which I've also now been on for 18 months.
• When I moved from Job A to Job B, my colleague was offered a secondment to Job A. My colleagues usual permanent role was also filled as a secondment by someone else.
• My colleagues secondment to Job A was actually a promotion for them, as their permanent role was a grade below.
• Job A and Job B were at the same grade.
• We've merged two large organisations. Where there is duplicating skills between the two businesses, people have been put into "reducing skills" pools and all the people doing a similar role between the businesses have been put into these pools to apply for the one role that will remain in the new organisation.
• Job B was specifically working on the merger. As that's complete now the role is no longer required.
• Job A is specific to the told company, so there no counterpart in the company we have merged with.
• My colleague I'm presuming does not want to go back to their permanent role as its a demotion (although I haven't been part of any conversations around this).
• So my colleague and I have both been put into a reducing skills pool for Job A, even though the role remains unchanged and we are both from the same company.
• We have both been asked to interview for Job A. The unsuccessful candidate will be made redundant unless another position in the business is secured before the consultation period ends.

I think that's literally all the facts.

I agree with you in that I don't see why I should have to apply for it. It's a really sensitive situation so just wanted to get some opinions before raising with anyone internally. Happy for any further thoughts/digging?

lincroft1710

Job B is redundant, therefore there is a redundancy situation.


Job A will continue and already has someone performing that role - your colleague. But there is someone else capable of performing that role who no longer has a role in the organisation - you. Therefore I think the employer is correct in what they are doing. 

rara32

Saqibm786 I think it will hinge on the criteria used to decide how you and your colleague ended up in a reducing skills pool. If you're role still exists and theirs does too I don't understand why you are both being made to apply for your permanent post. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask your HR department to explain the rationale. If both roles still exist i.e. your permanent role and your colleagues permanent role then I can't see where the redundancy is but it may be that both roles are redundant and a new role is available that you will both have to apply for or that their role is redundant and HR believe the roles are substantially similar. Normally you should be given all of this information as part of any formal consultation. If you are a member of a union or professional body then you can get advice from them normally but probably best to have the info from HR to share with them. 

lincroft1710

rara32 said:

Saqibm786 I think it will hinge on the criteria used to decide how you and your colleague ended up in a reducing skills pool. If you're role still exists and theirs does too I don't understand why you are both being made to apply for your permanent post. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask your HR department to explain the rationale. If both roles still exist i.e. your permanent role and your colleagues permanent role then I can't see where the redundancy is but it may be that both roles are redundant and a new role is available that you will both have to apply for or that their role is redundant and HR believe the roles are substantially similar. Normally you should be given all of this information as part of any formal consultation. If you are a member of a union or professional body then you can get advice from them normally but probably best to have the info from HR to share with them. 

Their original role exists and is currently filled by a promoted colleague.


The promoted colleague's role still exists and seems to have been filled by another colleague. 


The redundant role is Saqibm786's secondment. So Saqibm786 currently has no role and could be made redundant, but the employer is being fair in making the current and previous jobholders of his previous role apply so they can decide who is the best person for the role.


It may be a foregone conclusion in that the employer believes the current jobholder performs the role better than Saqibm786 did and are just going through the motions. Or it may be a genuine attempt to find the better person.

getmore4less

People sometimes forget that the requirements are there is a need for reduction.

That is the case the merger job is going.

That creates a redundancy situation.

Companies can shuffle everyone else around so the one that eventually end up leaving can be anyone.

Bumping is allowed.

To get their old job back would need contractual terms as part of the move to the temporary position.

rara32

Sorry but it doesn't matter that the secondment role is ending. I think that perhaps there is some confusion about what a secondment is. 

A secondment does not terminate an employee's permanent contract, their permanent role continues throughout the duration of the secondment and the main principle is that the person returns to their permanent role when the secondment ends. You also can't permanently recruit someone into someone else's permanent role.

If there is a redundancy it's not related to the secondment. If it is connected to the merger there is still an onus on the employer to give the rationale as part of meaningful consultation.

lincroft1710

saqibm786 said:

My old role that I was seconded from still exists and I have been asked to apply for it alongside the person who is currently in their own secondment covering my old role. One of us will be made redundant on the 10th December once the consultation and interviews finish.

As it is now December 10, perhaps the OP could give us an update.

saqibm786

lincroft1710 said:

saqibm786 said:

My old role that I was seconded from still exists and I have been asked to apply for it alongside the person who is currently in their own secondment covering my old role. One of us will be made redundant on the 10th December once the consultation and interviews finish.

As it is now December 10, perhaps the OP could give us an update.

Hi all thanks for all the comments.

In the end I interviewed for the role (without any choice) and was successful in securing it. Unfortunately the person who was on secondment covering my role has had to leave the business (even though they're previous perm role they were seconded from still exists in the business). 

I'm not sure if this really is the correct process or not for redundancies, if you have a perm role which still exists why should you be made redundant? If the rules are correct around this then just seems massively unfair.

Again - thanks to those who commented.