Subsidence claim

Marley16

I'M A NEWBIE!  FOLLOWING ARTICLE BY BLUNTINGTON88:

I too am in an ongoing battle with loss adjusters over subsidence claim hired by AVIVA!  We need a Mr Bates – having watched the Sub-Postmaster Scandal docu-drama!    How can we get in touch?  I join “Bluntington88”; how can we link up?   

My battle in brief:  A subsidence claim spanning more than 2 decades, yet AVIVA say such claims take 9 mths to 2 yrs to resolve; “dependent on complexity”.  Mine claim has never been complex as defective drainage was “culprit”; but due to the actions, or inaction by loss adjusters a complex claim has evolved and my files are proof!  Loss Adjusters have played a game I call “Shenanigans”, they have made my life a misery!  I’ve been through what totals approx. 

Phase 1 - 2001/2 Cunningham Lindsey:  A year of investigations followed by 3 weeks’ work 4/2002.

Phase 2 - 2009/10 Cunningham Lindsey:  Clearly their works were inadequate as damage had continued.  Yet another year of investigations took place, followed by 3 weeks’ work 5/2010 including limited underpinning and drainage repairs which should have been done previously.

Phase 3 - 2014/2018 Innovation Group/SubsNet:  By now the defective UPVC windows and Kitchen/Breakfast Room floor, plus the inevitable cracking were worsening, but this Loss Adjuster had a determination to repudiate/refused to re-open the claim which let’s face it, is the same subsidence!  After 4.5 years of investigations including “failed” drainage surveys, delaying tactics, devious and sheer determination to refute the claim.  I knew my claim was genuine, but I was disbelieved, so contacted AVIVA who transferred the claim.

Phase 4 - 2018/19 QuestGates:  I had great hope.  Almost a year of Investigations began 8/2018 and an Initial Investigation Report was issued 1.11.18 and this document is hugely important, after 18 years it draws attention to the shear vane readings of the soil at the rear right corner – mine being much lower at 10 and 15 KPa than is necessary for good stability of a residential property!   33KPa and above being necessary.  50KPa were readings obtained from the control at the front of property!  So why wasn’t this important fact discovered during previous protracted investigations [which had a detrimental impact on my daily working life]? 

Defective UPVC windows were replaced after for more 5.5 years!  I’d been told by Innovation Group they were defective due to:  Poor Manufacture, bad installation, thermal movement, wear and tear, and wait for it “lack of maintenance”!  Originals were by Anglian, the best in the early 1990s!  Non-invasive stabilisation was carried out to kitchen floor by Geobear 8/20019.  What happened next is a travesty!  The Kitchen/Breakfast Room [at rear/rear right corner] had to be gutted and I lost my beautiful Italian tiled flooring – it had the WOW factor when visitors came.  Works begun, including crack repairs to Dining Room/Sun Lounge and WC on left flank etc.  Cracks which keep recurring having been repaired “professionally” in April 2002 and during general redecorations in April 2011.  I was told the works would take 3-4 weeks.  The contractor, who’d been put in-charge to manage, was dysfunctional, incapable, incompetent and didn’t have a dedicated team in place; the whole thing was just cobbled together with one disaster after another.  The works took 4.5 months, by which took a toll on my health having to live out of a bedroom to eat, sleep, what TV – I could have no visitors as whole of downstairs was out of use [everything displaced].  I was forced to prepare my meals in my draughty old garage using microwave [had been offered a worktop oven, but used my microwave with 3-4 weeks duration having been given.]  At no time was Alternative Accommodation discussed or offered!

Phase 5 - 3/2020 to date QuestGates:  After only 5 months [and just beginning to recover from the chaotic life I’d just been forced to live, I discovered discolouration and efflorescence to the grout of the newly laid floor tiles!  Alarm bells ringing!  Early March 2020, I called the contractor to advise; they’d hired the flooring specialist.  I also called grout manufacturer BAL, who’s Technical Team said this was indicative of moisture!  More alarm bells ringing!  I updated contractor.  Next the UK went into lockdown.  

1 July 2020, 9 mths of investigations began to find root cause, initially to check for leaks.  “Defective Drainage - Story of my Life”; my 70th birthday began with a drainage survey!  An open joint found in drainage to right of kitchen, a run scheduled for replacement during 5/2010 works omitted by contractor!  QuestGates booked Auger for end Nov 2018, to relocate soakaway [had been listed for 4/2002 works, then removed!] including repair open joint, etc, yet unsurprising they failed to repair open joint finally done 16.11.20!  A travesty/a chaotic mess dating back to 2001, defective drainage allowing escape of water and the washing away of fines, ultimately destabilising the ground beneath my property being a fundamental element of this ongoing saga – the so-called experts have failed me, and I am angry!  This is indicative of what I’ve been through - total incompetence spanning more than 20 years – I despair!  

Open Joint found to be insignificant.  I asked if damp proof membrane been installed, wasn’t given an answer.  Bought the house 3/1980 and had no previous issues of damp to kitchen/breakfast room floor!  After 3 months of investigations by Polygon, their report of 3.3.21 finally confirmed the root cause – the lack of damp proof membrane!  

I received a “red-herring” email from QuestGates dated 9.7.21:  The contractors that applied the resin used an epoxy DPM resin primer when they levelled the floor. This primer was broadcast with a fine quartz aggregate, whilst the resin was wet, to achieve a textured finish that would increase the bond strength between the primer and the subsequent levelling screed. This is a typical construction detail that is employed when a new floor screed is installed. The contractor did advise that there was no evidence of any damp issues at the time of their works and had there been, they would have applied a further layer of the DPM screed (which is what we are arranging for Safeguard to now complete).  1)  If a damp proof membrane had been installed, there wouldn’t have been a damp issue!  2)  Flooring Specialist provided me with evidence that they use a Flowcrete product called Flowscreed Industrial Top [Green] which is a levelling screed and not a DPM which I submitted to Financial Ombudsman, but they chose to believe the fabricated “story” by QuestGates, but disbelieved the truth provided.

It would be necessary to gut the kitchen/breakfast room to facilitate a second attempt!  This time the works began in earnest 1 June 2021 and told they would last 6-7 weeks.  It wasn’t until 11 months later that the works concluded.  Meanwhile, I’d been forced to live as I did during 4.5 months in 2019 – making a total of 15.5 months.  Again, no alternative accommodation was discussed or offered.

3 years on from discovering discolouration/efflorescence to grout, I received a letter dated 10.2.23 from QuestGates regarding the lack of DPM and a feeble excuse!   I truly believe QuestGates were negligent.  Building Control Regulations 2010 have a whole section on DPM and also Thermal Insulation.  There is no excuse.  Does anyone know if I have a sound case to sue, as I seriously believe that if the answer is yes, this would open the door to me raising the history of this saga.

So far I have received £750 distress compensation for being without cooking facilities [Financial Ombudsman Service ignored the fact that I lost use of my home.  I had a video made to demonstrate, as a record of how I was made to live [I’m a woman, of later years = perhaps discrimination has crept in?]

Cracking recurred to Dining Room/Sun Lounge [left/rear left], soon after the reparations in 2019, but I’m not willing to go through more upheaval until I am sure of the root cause.  QuestGates are offering to monitor – this is what they do best, yet another stalling mechanism.   I had all this before, yet for example when kitchen/breakfast room [open plan area] was gutted, this revealed huge gash in the rear wall, yet miniscule evidence on the exterior brickwork.

I hope what I have written makes some sense of this enormous issue I’ve been living with night and day for so long.  Must finish here and get this posted on MSE forum in the hope someone decent will pick this up and give me some advice, please. 

Annemos

Marley16. I do not even know what to say about all this. It sounds utterly awful. 

I have also been told by the FOS, that single people, are expected to be able to put up with several weeks and months of rooms being in a "mess and/or emptied out"; so they are only entitled to a small bit of compensation. (300 pounds for example).

 If they were without a toilet they would get more.  Also a family would get more. 

The FOS say that this is because they are not a "punishing body" 

Saluki79

Im having the same issues with a loss adjuster regarding a minor subsidence issue and a simple Google search has brought up a worrying number of poor reviews for this organisation. I’m at a total loss too as my issue has been ongoing since Sept 22 and we appear to be going around in circles. I’ve been told recently to expect it to run for another 18-24 months! 

Annemos

Do you know what the cause is yet, Saluki79? 

If trees, the claim can easily take about 2 years. (Mine took four years. But it should not have, if they had acted properly.)

So for example. They potentially need to do ENOUGH boreholes to check foundation depths and where any tree roots are.

Also ongoing crack monitoring to see what is happening to the movement. Trees in clay:  the monitoring will often show that the cracks close up in the Winter, as moisture goes back in. So that monitoring takes some months before one gets anywhere, really.   

Then, if it is safe for the building (not a Heave Risk), there are then potential negotiations with Council/Neighbour, to take a tree down or do a root barrier or sort out some regular tree-maintenance package. That process can take a time, too. (And if none of these are possible, is it some sort of underpinning?)

And then if a tree IS taken down (or a root barrier done), I would not let them do the repairs straight away, until they had done more monitoring to see if the Tree coming down had actually worked and the movement had stopped.(They were trying to get an early sign off of the claim.)   Especially if there is more than one Tree.    I was told "Don't worry: The Repairs will act as Crack Monitors".......  BUT I was NOT prepared to accept that and I challenged it with my own Engineer support. And my home did indeed carry on moving due to a 2nd tree. 

Then the repairs process.....   problems with lack of contractors, non-expert contractors. It can all crop up! 


(If your case is leaking drains, I do not know so much about that. But I presume monitoring would still have to be done.) 

=============================

And another comment. When they wanted to close down the claim straight after the removal of the first tree, without doing any ongoing monitoring to see if it had actually worked... I researched all the Ombudsman Service cases. And they were suggesting, that because repairs have to be LASTING AND EFFECTIVE, then the Ombudsman Service tends to expect that more monitoring will indeed be done, to make sure the remedy has worked. So when I refused to accept instant repairs and a sign-off, straight after first Tree was removed, the Loss Adjuster did not challenge me. But I was ready if he/she had tried to and would have gone to Ombudsman. 

Saluki79

Hi Annemos,
They have dug the trenches and done the soil tests and concluded that the cause is a huge oak tree that’s on my land - we got to this conclusion back in 2022. It’s affecting my neighbours house too - she’s in her 80s and uses a different insurer but they have outsourced to the same loss adjuster. I keep getting legal letters from the loss adjuster and I keep referring them back to have an internal discussion! They applied to get the tree removed and the Tree Officer has since put a protection order on the tree and refused it removal. The loss adjuster now wants to monitor for another 6 months as they didn’t take any movement readings until recently (the main reason for the removal being refused!) and then reapply for the tree removal. We were planning on selling the house when the issue was discovered by the estate agent back in 2022 and since then, like many people, our outgoings have increased considerably so I’m terrified that this will go on and on. I feel trapped and scared now as the more I read about this company, the more it seems that I’ll be strung along. 

Annemos

Is the Oak Tree older than your property? Have they done a Heave Analysis? How close is it to BOTH the properties? 

If Tree Removal would cause Heave, then it would possibly not be a good idea to have the tree taken down? What have they answered on that issue of Heave? 


It made a difference to my claim, when the tree roots were actually found under my foundation in the root analysis. The Council took note of that. But those Council Trees in my case were the same age as our homes and they were not considered special Trees. They were also not yet mature and still had considerable potential for additional extra growth. The Council was not maintaining them. They were also affecting four properties, if something was not done about them. We were not at risk if Heave. 


We get caught in this, Saulki79. We either potentially have to sell at quite a big loss. Or we have to sit it out and potentially get our own Structural Engineer and Tree Inspector in. 

Please go onto the FOS site and research cases in the Insurance Section. Find as many as you can by searching  on "Insurance Company refuses to underpin".      "Subsidence: TPO Tree"      etc etc. To see what has happened in those cases and what was recommended and what the outcomes were. 



https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions

I have done this one for you........    "Insurance Company refuses to underpin" 

61 cases pop up. It is time-consuming. But I found doing this invaluable. And so has another poster on this site. 


https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/ombudsman-decisions/search?Keyword=Insurance+Company+refuses+to++underpin&IndustrySectorID%5B3%5D=3&Sort=relevance

Saluki79

Thank you Annemos. Will take a good look later. The tree is very old (although the surrounding properties are a similar age) but the tree is thought to be slightly younger than the houses. The loss adjuster has said earlier in the process that the house is at low risk of heave. I was also told by them that legally you can’t sell the house at a reduced price due to the subsidence as it will be fixed - crazy! 

Annemos

Well, I needed a good laugh for the day!! 

The stuff that comes out of them sometimes, defies belief. They must think we are all daft! 

That's when you realise, they either don't know what they are talking about.... or they are doing it deliberately, hoping we will accept it and just go away. 

Very VERY disappointing. 

Annemos

Saluki... if the Tree is on your own land. Why did they have to apply to get the Tree removed?  Wouldn't that only happen if it is on Council Land? Or if on your land  .......  but someone in the neighbourhood found out and asked for a TPO to be put on it. 

Or are you in a protected area in general? 

Saluki79

I live in a conservation area so we had to apply despite it being on my land. The council then put a temporary TPO in place for nice we applied for the removal.