How to recover shares from busted brokers

Alexland

RobHT said:

Vanguard has only their funds, that's why I don't use it, it may be good in the future if I want to buy some of their funds, but it's not for now...

For the modest amount for which percentage platform charges make sense then being limited to Vanguard funds is probably a reasonable compromise for most.

RobHT said:
Plus you need to invest every month if I remember well, no way  

Vanguard only require a monthly contribution if the account opening balance is below their minimum. They probably wouldn't bother complaining if you cancelled the regular contribution after the first month or whatever you considered a decent amount of time.

masonic

RobHT said:

wmb194 said:

OP, T212 emails me a contract note for every trade. You could also take screenshots from your transaction history.

Yes I get that, but when you do 200-400 transactions in the financial year, it's a mess... In any case, I can download the report if I want to, it's very clear, but I can't download a file that states my current share ownership... I compile it manually and it doesn't include the share price average, which could be a problem for HMRC, imagine if T212 goes busted and I need to workoud my taxes in a short period of time, without the price average it's extremely painful. I get that this is something I can do manually, but it's an hell of a job...

Plus due to my trades, it happens that I buy and sell the same stock 2-3 times each year... That's where the challenge is, imagine this for 50 stocks that I trade in average...
It seems I'm doing advanced stuff with simple tools, hence, the exponential manual job required

Have you considered cutting down on your habit? I can certainly appreciate the amount of work required to keep track of all that trading, and of course this feeds in to your other thread about bed & breakfast. I suppose it could be said the situation is a bit of a dog's breakfast

In any case, I don't think you can use T212's figure for the current acquisition price to calculate gains on shares you bought more of since making the sale. You need to be keeping your own detailed records of the average price at the point of each disposal in order to do an accurate calculation, and you need to keep a record of that information should it ever be queried by HMRC. Each time you buy more of a share the average changes, but only the average at the time of the sale should be used to calculate your gain, and any sales that can be matched to purchases under bed and breakfast need to be excluded.

RobHT

masonic said:

RobHT said:

wmb194 said:

OP, T212 emails me a contract note for every trade. You could also take screenshots from your transaction history.

Yes I get that, but when you do 200-400 transactions in the financial year, it's a mess... In any case, I can download the report if I want to, it's very clear, but I can't download a file that states my current share ownership... I compile it manually and it doesn't include the share price average, which could be a problem for HMRC, imagine if T212 goes busted and I need to workoud my taxes in a short period of time, without the price average it's extremely painful. I get that this is something I can do manually, but it's an hell of a job...

Plus due to my trades, it happens that I buy and sell the same stock 2-3 times each year... That's where the challenge is, imagine this for 50 stocks that I trade in average...
It seems I'm doing advanced stuff with simple tools, hence, the exponential manual job required

Have you considered cutting down on your habit? I can certainly appreciate the amount of work required to keep track of all that trading, and of course this feeds in to your other thread about bed & breakfast. I suppose it could be said the situation is a bit of a dog's breakfast

In any case, I don't think you can use T212's figure for the current acquisition price to calculate gains on shares you bought more of since making the sale. You need to be keeping your own detailed records of the average price at the point of each disposal in order to do an accurate calculation, and you need to keep a record of that information should it ever be queried by HMRC. Each time you buy more of a share the average changes, but only the average at the time of the sale should be used to calculate your gain, and any sales that can be matched to purchases under bed and breakfast need to be excluded.

Lesson learnt, especially if I use different brokers for the same stock, the worst!
At least I'll simplify my life, then I'll check the share average before I sell, but I'll also keep the average stored in my spreadsheet  

Thrugelmir

RobHT said:

wmb194 said:

OP, T212 emails me a contract note for every trade. You could also take screenshots from your transaction history.

Yes I get that, but when you do 200-400 transactions in the financial year, it's a mess...

Seriously?  My minimum trade is set at £5.5k now.  At the higher end of your trading activity I'd be turning over around £3.5m of stocks per year. That's crazy.  Sounds like an attempt to day trade rather than invest for the longer term. 

CKhalvashi

Thrugelmir said:

RobHT said:

wmb194 said:

OP, T212 emails me a contract note for every trade. You could also take screenshots from your transaction history.

Yes I get that, but when you do 200-400 transactions in the financial year, it's a mess...

Seriously?  My minimum trade is set at £5.5k now.  At the higher end of your trading activity I'd be turning over around £3.5m of stocks per year. That's crazy.  Sounds like an attempt to day trade rather than invest for the longer term. 

In fairness though, I sometimes think 'Oh, I like the look of that at that price' and will put something in.

Always less than £5.5k though and definitely not to 200 transactions a year.

4 trades a week at the lower end doesn't really sound like day trading to me.

Thrugelmir

CKhalvashi said:

Thrugelmir said:

RobHT said:

wmb194 said:

OP, T212 emails me a contract note for every trade. You could also take screenshots from your transaction history.

Yes I get that, but when you do 200-400 transactions in the financial year, it's a mess...

Seriously?  My minimum trade is set at £5.5k now.  At the higher end of your trading activity I'd be turning over around £3.5m of stocks per year. That's crazy.  Sounds like an attempt to day trade rather than invest for the longer term. 

In fairness though, I sometimes think 'Oh, I like the look of that at that price' and will put something in.

Always less than £5.5k though and definitely not to 200 transactions a year.

4 trades a week at the lower end doesn't really sound like day trading to me.

Day trading is an expression rather than the act of flipping shares in the same trading session. More a rapid turnover based on speculation rather than any attempt to identify stocks that meet specific criteria. As an example one hedge fund manager I've heard speak in the past. Said that they put in a 100 hours of research into a company before it's even put to the investment committee for consideration as a purchase. 

RobHT

Thrugelmir said:

CKhalvashi said:

Thrugelmir said:

RobHT said:

wmb194 said:

OP, T212 emails me a contract note for every trade. You could also take screenshots from your transaction history.

Yes I get that, but when you do 200-400 transactions in the financial year, it's a mess...

Seriously?  My minimum trade is set at £5.5k now.  At the higher end of your trading activity I'd be turning over around £3.5m of stocks per year. That's crazy.  Sounds like an attempt to day trade rather than invest for the longer term. 

In fairness though, I sometimes think 'Oh, I like the look of that at that price' and will put something in.

Always less than £5.5k though and definitely not to 200 transactions a year.

4 trades a week at the lower end doesn't really sound like day trading to me.

Day trading is an expression rather than the act of flipping shares in the same trading session. More a rapid turnover based on speculation rather than any attempt to identify stocks that meet specific criteria. As an example one hedge fund manager I've heard speak in the past. Said that they put in a 100 hours of research into a company before it's even put to the investment committee for consideration as a purchase. 

It's an old post, but I reply now anyway.

I do the same, but you know, with budget availability and opportunities in positioning in long term opportunities, plus some short term interest for cash out using the tax allowance in UK, I need to do these movements on purpose, unfortunately the volume of trades is uncomfortable for reporting when it comes to certain brokers, you end up using Excel way too much , especially because you need to merge the data from all the other brokers, that is unevitable.

GeoffTF

RobHT said:

masonic said:

RobHT said:

- Your shares are not covered with the limit above, they are already protected by your ownership, the problem is that your broker buys the shares for you, so if your broker loses track of these data, you are done...

Not true. I suggest you do some reading. Perhaps from a better source such as the FSCS website: https://www.fscs.org.uk/what-we-cover/investments/

If a broker fails, then you would not be making an FSCS claim in respect of cash balances as these are not held by the broker (unless they are also a bank). You would only have a claim if some of your money had been improperly taken by the broker. In exactly the same way, you'd have an FSCS claim if some of your shares were missing. This would all come under the £85k compensation limit you mention.

If a broker is so negligent or malicious that they destroy the records of what each client holds, then it is unlikely that any personal records you keep will be taken as proof of your holding. They will generally turn to specialist forensic accounting services, some administrators have these services in house. Contract notes are worth downloading and keeping though, as well as an up to date summary of your holdings. You may be asked to confirm that your holdings are correct and without any records you'd just be guessing.

RobHT said:

Anything else I can do to avoid a loss?
I started to have a lot of money invested in different brokers, I can't quite imagine to lose my precious shares

One thing you can do is avoid spreading your money around too many brokers. Doing so will lead you into the more obscure and niche companies, which are more likely to fail than the large established ones, and more likely to have "record keeping issues".

Thank you.
Is it the 85k limit for the worth of my shares (+ cash obviously), or by the money I've spent to purchase them?

I have records of my number of shares, but I don't have a record signed by the company, let me explain.
1. HL gives me the contract note, it's crystal clear, no issues there.
2. T212 gives me nothing unless an useless email about the stocks that I own for both accounts (standard and ISA), it comes automatically each month, but you can't download it, you can only download ondemand the history of buy/sell, which is a bit different and it's more tricky to track down with many stocks due to the way the report is compiled...
3. I'm quite scared about a review from HMRC, ok I'm not so rich, but they can always knock the door with the will to know me better , you know, I can't refuse... If I give these crappy reports to them, !!!!!!, I don't think they are gonna like it...
There's can be a chance that I can ask T212 to give me a specific report, but they can easily send me to the hell and close my account, apparently brokers are able to close your account and f... off your shares outside the ISA just if they want to do so... Not sure how much power they have with an ISA account...
I've heard many stories about it, but obviously I couldn't verify them personally.

I don't have intention to use crappy brokers, I use the ones approved by FSCS, but they differ a lot each other, certain try to hold you with absurd fees if you leave, some is a balance of it, some it's partially free, some it's simply expensive to use and not good if you make many transactions.
In fact I use HL for few transactions and T212 for 200-400 transactions per year...

Compensation for cash deposits is separate from that for investments. In the case of cash, there is compensation for the first £85K of the deposit. Your investments have to be ring fenced by law, but if the platform goes bust the administrators can take your share of their fees from your investments. There is compensation for the first £85K of any shortfall.

If Trading 212 is that bad, do not use it. Outside a tax shelter, you have to keep your own financial records and your own CGT calculations with the source documents as proof. (You can hire an accountant if you need help.) The FSCS approves crappy brokers because it is required to facilitate competition in the market. Avoid them. The less you trade, the more money you are likely to make.

maxsteam

You should keep, as a minimum, a record of the brokers whom you have an account with in a drawer and you should mention to close family that there are important documents in that drawer. Adding an annual statement every year is a good idea.

My opinion is that the danger that is bigger than a broker going bust without leaving proper records is the shareholder dying without the executors being aware of all the nominee accounts.

RobHT

GeoffTF said:

RobHT said:

masonic said:

RobHT said:

- Your shares are not covered with the limit above, they are already protected by your ownership, the problem is that your broker buys the shares for you, so if your broker loses track of these data, you are done...

Not true. I suggest you do some reading. Perhaps from a better source such as the FSCS website: https://www.fscs.org.uk/what-we-cover/investments/

If a broker fails, then you would not be making an FSCS claim in respect of cash balances as these are not held by the broker (unless they are also a bank). You would only have a claim if some of your money had been improperly taken by the broker. In exactly the same way, you'd have an FSCS claim if some of your shares were missing. This would all come under the £85k compensation limit you mention.

If a broker is so negligent or malicious that they destroy the records of what each client holds, then it is unlikely that any personal records you keep will be taken as proof of your holding. They will generally turn to specialist forensic accounting services, some administrators have these services in house. Contract notes are worth downloading and keeping though, as well as an up to date summary of your holdings. You may be asked to confirm that your holdings are correct and without any records you'd just be guessing.

RobHT said:

Anything else I can do to avoid a loss?
I started to have a lot of money invested in different brokers, I can't quite imagine to lose my precious shares

One thing you can do is avoid spreading your money around too many brokers. Doing so will lead you into the more obscure and niche companies, which are more likely to fail than the large established ones, and more likely to have "record keeping issues".

Thank you.
Is it the 85k limit for the worth of my shares (+ cash obviously), or by the money I've spent to purchase them?

I have records of my number of shares, but I don't have a record signed by the company, let me explain.
1. HL gives me the contract note, it's crystal clear, no issues there.
2. T212 gives me nothing unless an useless email about the stocks that I own for both accounts (standard and ISA), it comes automatically each month, but you can't download it, you can only download ondemand the history of buy/sell, which is a bit different and it's more tricky to track down with many stocks due to the way the report is compiled...
3. I'm quite scared about a review from HMRC, ok I'm not so rich, but they can always knock the door with the will to know me better , you know, I can't refuse... If I give these crappy reports to them, !!!!!!, I don't think they are gonna like it...
There's can be a chance that I can ask T212 to give me a specific report, but they can easily send me to the hell and close my account, apparently brokers are able to close your account and f... off your shares outside the ISA just if they want to do so... Not sure how much power they have with an ISA account...
I've heard many stories about it, but obviously I couldn't verify them personally.

I don't have intention to use crappy brokers, I use the ones approved by FSCS, but they differ a lot each other, certain try to hold you with absurd fees if you leave, some is a balance of it, some it's partially free, some it's simply expensive to use and not good if you make many transactions.
In fact I use HL for few transactions and T212 for 200-400 transactions per year...

Compensation for cash deposits is separate from that for investments. In the case of cash, there is compensation for the first £85K of the deposit. Your investments have to be ring fenced by law, but if the platform goes bust the administrators can take your share of their fees from your investments. There is compensation for the first £85K of any shortfall.

So you are saying that to cover its face, a broker may sell my shares to cover the damage, if beyond 85k evaluation?
If I understood well, this come after the protection of 85k held in cash in the account, but 85k is always the total of financial value between shares/options and cash that they need to protect.

Tendentially, they would sell my shares instead of taking my cash?