Urgent Warning - Avro and Octopus taking the same direct debit. Check your bank account.

oliverbrown

MWT said:
Why? They are entitled to charge for usage now, take a little responsibility for your own finances and remove a DD you no longer need if you want to eliminate any risk of this problem.

Even though Octopus told people not to?

dbks

MWT said:

oliverbrown said:

When Octopus said the direct debits would be "moved over" I wondered what that would actually mean. It appears Octopus have simply set up new direct debits without doing anything about the old Avro ones. Not good.

Its not clear art the moment if those getting hit with both had their DD transferred to Octopus or if they set it up themselves on the Octopus account, but either way, only the Administrators of Avro (or the customer) can cancel the Avro DD, it isn't something Octopus can do for you, so if you have both showing on your bank account I would agree that it is time to cancel the one for Avro.

I think it is fair to say that all those on this board posting this has happened to them has agreed a new DDI with Octopus Energy.

Let me explain the technicalities.

When you set up a DDI, it will include a 'Service User Number' . Most people don't look at this, but it identifies who the supplier is.

I'm not certain, but I think it may be possible to change the name of the supplier, whilst retaining the SUN (by agreement of the supplier's sponsor). This would be useful, for example, if a legitimate limited company elects to change their registered name whilst retaining their registered number.

The reason I am not certain is that I know a supplier cannot change the name if it relates to a different legal status. e.g. John Smith Butchers, cannot change their SUN name to John Smith Butchers Ltd, if they decide to incorporate.

If the name associated with the SUN changes, then your bank will reflect the new name when they make the next collection.

However, in all the examples I have seen posted on this form, users have reported that collections were made by both Avro & Octopus. If Octopus had taken over the original SUN of Avro, then people would be saying Octopus had taken the same payment twice - presumably under a different reference number.

Another safeguard of the DD system is that a collection under a DDI must have an associated reference number, so it would be easily identified by the paying bank if 2 payments were attempted to be collected at the same time under the same reference number, and at least one would then be rejected.

An valid example for 2 different reference numbers would be if you held 2 accounts with the same supplier, e..g. you have 2 properties supplied by the same supplier.

A supplier cannot re-use the same reference number once that DDI has been cancelled. So another reason for a different reference number.

Where a new reference number is used, then a new DDI has to be agreed by the payer in advance.

Similarly, a supplier cannot create a new DDI with a different SUN, without agreement of the payer in advance.


So either Octopus use the same SUN and reference number as Avro used (if that is possible), in which case the same collection cannot be made twice, (or if it was, it would show both as Avro or Octopus, but not both) or Octopus have used a new SUN and/or reference number, in which case the express prior permission of the payer must first be obtained. i.e. obtained a new DDI from them.

Fortunately, the Direct Debit Guarantee fully protects customers who have a DD collected without an associated DDI having first been agreed.

 

dbks

MWT said:

oliverbrown said:

MWT said:
 but either way, only the Administrators of Avro (or the customer) can cancel the Avro DD, it isn't something Octopus can do for you

Up until Octopus has a mechanism in place to get Avro to stop taking payments they should not take anything themselves. 

That isn't really an option, Octopus are the current supplier, they are entitled to take the payments....

Only if they have a DDI lodged with them by the payer

oliverbrown

I will certainly agree that in the instance a customer manually sets up a Direct Debit with Octopus in the knowledge that they have an existing active Avro DD, they have not followed the correct advice stated in the emails. It would be interesting to hear from people who have been double billed to see if this is the case.

However

The other day I thought I'd set up a new DD with Octopus and cancel the Avro DD, having seen in my account the message from Octopus that they had no record on any DD. I entered my details (name, bank account, same as with Avro); up came my details - Octopus were aware of my monthly amount and the date. They ackowledged my "change" of name and bank account. I then, like a good boy, increased the monthly amount - which I was able to do.

I have one DD in my bank account: it's still Avro and there's no way of telling whether it's been taken over by Octopus. I have not received any email affirming Octopus' takeover - yet it appears they have.

I now have no idea whether that one DD will be taken twice nor by whom. I do not take kindly to the know-it-alls who preach that I must look after my financial affairs myself, and their dangerous advice to cancel the Avro DD (because - well work it out). If this issue is not resolved, I shall reduce the DD amount to £1.00 and then see what happens on the due date. That way I'm not out of pocket, and no DD has been bounced.

Lastly, I run a tight ship on the account from which the DD will be taken (that's me being financially responsible, natch), so two large payments coming out will put me into the red and/or cause the DDs to be bounced. And no, I will not leave a large balance lying around 'just-in-case'.

oliverbrown

Direct debits set up in the Octopus control panel will definitely show as "Octopus" on your bank's direct debit list. Mine took a few days to show up after I entered the details in my Octopus control panel.

mikejtforum

However said:

The other day I thought I'd set up a new DD with Octopus and cancel the Avro DD, having seen in my account the message from Octopus that they had no record on any DD. I entered my details (name, bank account, same as with Avro); up came my details - Octopus were aware of my monthly amount and the date. They ackowledged my "change" of name and bank account. I then, like a good boy, increased the monthly amount - which I was able to do.

I have one DD in my bank account: it's still Avro and there's no way of telling whether it's been taken over by Octopus. I have not received any email affirming Octopus' takeover - yet it appears they have.

I now have no idea whether that one DD will be taken twice nor by whom. I do not take kindly to the know-it-alls who preach that I must look after my financial affairs myself, and their dangerous advice to cancel the Avro DD (because - well work it out). If this issue is not resolved, I shall reduce the DD amount to £1.00 and then see what happens on the due date. That way I'm not out of pocket, and no DD has been bounced.

Lastly, I run a tight ship on the account from which the DD will be taken (that's me being financially responsible, natch), so two large payments coming out will put me into the red and/or cause the DDs to be bounced. And no, I will not leave a large balance lying around 'just-in-case'.

Thanks, this is where I am at now. When you say if the issue is not resolved you will reduce the DD to £1 are you referring to the existing Avro DD or the new one with Octopus?. I have emailed Octopus a couple of times asking what I should do now and they have failed to respond despite the guff they put in their last update email stating they will reply to enquiries on the same day!

wild666

I created my Octopus DD then went into my online bank account and cancelled the Avro DD. If people don't cancel the Avro DD then it will be taken on the same date as the Octopus DD. I did this on the 11/10/21 the day after the Avro DD had gone out of my account, it just means that I will be refunded £48 on top of my £123 credit. I did put off creating the DD for about two weeks as it initially said don't cancel DD's but I'm glad I cancelled it when I did. 

wild666

MWT said:

oliverbrown said:

When Octopus said the direct debits would be "moved over" I wondered what that would actually mean. It appears Octopus have simply set up new direct debits without doing anything about the old Avro ones. Not good.

Its not clear art the moment if those getting hit with both had their DD transferred to Octopus or if they set it up themselves on the Octopus account, but either way, only the Administrators of Avro (or the customer) can cancel the Avro DD, it isn't something Octopus can do for you, so if you have both showing on your bank account I would agree that it is time to cancel the one for Avro.

When I created the Octopus DD I put in my details and I was expecting it to say an amount my DD would be every month but once I put in the bank details and clicked next it set the DD at the same as the Avro account had being, £48, when I was expecting a sum of over £60 per month, which is around the amount of energy I have used since Octopus took over on the 26th September.

wild666

dbks said:

MWT said:

oliverbrown said:

When Octopus said the direct debits would be "moved over" I wondered what that would actually mean. It appears Octopus have simply set up new direct debits without doing anything about the old Avro ones. Not good.

Its not clear art the moment if those getting hit with both had their DD transferred to Octopus or if they set it up themselves on the Octopus account, but either way, only the Administrators of Avro (or the customer) can cancel the Avro DD, it isn't something Octopus can do for you, so if you have both showing on your bank account I would agree that it is time to cancel the one for Avro.

I think it is fair to say that all those on this board posting this has happened to them has agreed a new DDI with Octopus Energy.

Let me explain the technicalities.

When you set up a DDI, it will include a 'Service User Number' . Most people don't look at this, but it identifies who the supplier is.

I'm not certain, but I think it may be possible to change the name of the supplier, whilst retaining the SUN (by agreement of the supplier's sponsor). This would be useful, for example, if a legitimate limited company elects to change their registered name whilst retaining their registered number.

The reason I am not certain is that I know a supplier cannot change the name if it relates to a different legal status. e.g. John Smith Butchers, cannot change their SUN name to John Smith Butchers Ltd, if they decide to incorporate.

If the name associated with the SUN changes, then your bank will reflect the new name when they make the next collection.

However, in all the examples I have seen posted on this form, users have reported that collections were made by both Avro & Octopus. If Octopus had taken over the original SUN of Avro, then people would be saying Octopus had taken the same payment twice - presumably under a different reference number.

Another safeguard of the DD system is that a collection under a DDI must have an associated reference number, so it would be easily identified by the paying bank if 2 payments were attempted to be collected at the same time under the same reference number, and at least one would then be rejected.

An valid example for 2 different reference numbers would be if you held 2 accounts with the same supplier, e..g. you have 2 properties supplied by the same supplier.

A supplier cannot re-use the same reference number once that DDI has been cancelled. So another reason for a different reference number.

Where a new reference number is used, then a new DDI has to be agreed by the payer in advance.

Similarly, a supplier cannot create a new DDI with a different SUN, without agreement of the payer in advance.


So either Octopus use the same SUN and reference number as Avro used (if that is possible), in which case the same collection cannot be made twice, (or if it was, it would show both as Avro or Octopus, but not both) or Octopus have used a new SUN and/or reference number, in which case the express prior permission of the payer must first be obtained. i.e. obtained a new DDI from them.

Fortunately, the Direct Debit Guarantee fully protects customers who have a DD collected without an associated DDI having first been agreed.

 

They won't be able to use the same SUN as that SUN will specifically relate to the Avro DD they will have to use a new DDI  as was done with my Avro/Octopus DD to create a new change of supplier and DD. Anyone who hasn't cancelled but has set up a DD with Octopus will see 2 DD's taken on the same day.