Electricity power upgrade

Andy72mtb

Good Morning, hopefully someone will have some advice on this. We are currently converting a redundant farmhouse and barns, there is power to the property which runs from a shared transformer with one other (large) property. our property has been empty for 10 years, the other property has been modernised and expanded within the last 5 years. The problem I'm facing is the power coming to our property is too low and we have been told we need to pay to upgrade the transformer at a cost of £15000. but surely the power company should provide a big enough transformer to run 2 large properties at their expense. In my head I reckon that the other property is using 75% leaving us 25% which is not enough according to the electrician. Thanks

Section62

Andy72mtb said:

Good Morning, hopefully someone will have some advice on this. We are currently converting a redundant farmhouse and barns, there is power to the property which runs from a shared transformer with one other (large) property. our property has been empty for 10 years, the other property has been modernised and expanded within the last 5 years. The problem I'm facing is the power coming to our property is too low and we have been told we need to pay to upgrade the transformer at a cost of £15000. but surely the power company should provide a big enough transformer to run 2 large properties at their expense. In my head I reckon that the other property is using 75% leaving us 25% which is not enough according to the electrician. Thanks

When you say the power is too low, do you mean the voltage?  Or is your electrician saying the electrical demand of your property (when completed) exceeds the spare capacity of the transformer?

Distribution companies have an obligation to provide an electrical supply which meets various standards (e.g. voltage and frequency), but when it comes to new build or significant upgrades to existing supplies, the distribution company may refuse a connection or ask for a financial contribution for upgrades.

Has the property had a working electricity connection throughout the 10 years it was left empty?

Do you know what capacity the existing supply to the property has? And what your electrician says you will need?

Andy72mtb

Section62 said:

Andy72mtb said:

Good Morning, hopefully someone will have some advice on this. We are currently converting a redundant farmhouse and barns, there is power to the property which runs from a shared transformer with one other (large) property. our property has been empty for 10 years, the other property has been modernised and expanded within the last 5 years. The problem I'm facing is the power coming to our property is too low and we have been told we need to pay to upgrade the transformer at a cost of £15000. but surely the power company should provide a big enough transformer to run 2 large properties at their expense. In my head I reckon that the other property is using 75% leaving us 25% which is not enough according to the electrician. Thanks

When you say the power is too low, do you mean the voltage?  Or is your electrician saying the electrical demand of your property (when completed) exceeds the spare capacity of the transformer?

Distribution companies have an obligation to provide an electrical supply which meets various standards (e.g. voltage and frequency), but when it comes to new build or significant upgrades to existing supplies, the distribution company may refuse a connection or ask for a financial contribution for upgrades.

Has the property had a working electricity connection throughout the 10 years it was left empty?

Do you know what capacity the existing supply to the property has? And what your electrician says you will need?

Yes the property has had a power supply all the time it was unoccupied. We thought an upgrade to 2x 80amp fuse would be required, but the spare capacity is insufficient ,I'm not sure of the existing, but the quote was to upgrade to a 25kVA  transformer plus new overhead wires.

Section62

Andy72mtb said:

Yes the property has had a power supply all the time it was unoccupied. We thought an upgrade to 2x 80amp fuse would be required, but the spare capacity is insufficient ,I'm not sure of the existing, but the quote was to upgrade to a 25kVA  transformer plus new overhead wires.

If the farm didn't need a three-phase supply, it isn't uncommon for remote rural properties to be supplied by a pole transformer fed by a line with only two phases (the high voltage (11kv) side would only have two, rather than three wires).

Your existing main fuse could be as low as perhaps 40A.  You may be able to check this on a label attached to the electricity company's fuse carrier or service head.  Note: you don't need to (and mustn't) do anything to this equipment, you should be able to find the fuse capacity rating just by looking at the external label.

If this is the kind of arrangement you have then the distribution company may need to replace/upgrade the high voltage overhead wires between the transformer pole and the nearest location where a full 3-phase supply is available.

In which case a cost (to you) of £15k is not out of the ordinary.  There's a lot more work involved than just swapping the transformers over.

Unfortunately (AIUI) if you are seeking an upgrade to the existing supply the distribution company is allowed to pass on whatever proportion of their costs as they see fit.  The fact another dwelling is also supplied by the same wires makes no difference - unless they too were seeking an upgrade.

tacpot12

Is the company aware that you are converting the barns to sell as seperate properties? If they think you are a property developer and likely to make a good profit on multiple barn conversions, they might want a greater contribution form you than if they understand that you are a private indvidual who is converting the entire property (to bring it back into use) for their own benefit. You might be able to negotiate a lower contribution if this is the case. 

As has been stated, they are not obliged to supply two properties with power, although they are in the business of selling electricity, so you might expect that they would have a commercial interest in giving you as much capacity as you are prepared to commit to using. 

Section62

tacpot12 said:

...although they are in the business of selling electricity, so you might expect that they would have a commercial interest in giving you as much capacity as you are prepared to commit to using. 

As far as I know (but there could be exceptions in some parts of the UK I'm not familiar with) the DNO's responsibility is only to provide the infrastructure for other company's electricity to pass across - they don't have a direct gain to be made from facilitating any given consumer (on the domestic and light-commercial scale) to use more electric.

Any indirect benefit they may get would probably be maximised by encouraging more use in those more densely populated areas where they already have some spare capacity in the distribution network, because those areas would offer greater potential returns for any investment.

If the DNO were to give the OP a £15k upgrade for free then there is a lot of electricity needing to be sold (after everyone else has taken their cut) before the DNO would be able to recoup their money.

My own experience of DNO operations suggests the figures they quote do sometimes reflect discounts for betterment - e.g. where existing equipment is life-expired - but on the whole there is little encouragement to use more electricity.  In the rural area I know well, small businesses setting up in redundant farm buildings have found it cheaper to buy a heavy-duty diesel generator rather than pay to get a 3-phase mains connection to the site.

Hence, if the OP's circumstances are as I'm assuming, a quote of £15k doesn't feel as if it would be an unexpected amount.

Andy72mtb

tacpot12 said:

Is the company aware that you are converting the barns to sell as seperate properties? If they think you are a property developer and likely to make a good profit on multiple barn conversions, they might want a greater contribution form you than if they understand that you are a private indvidual who is converting the entire property (to bring it back into use) for their own benefit. You might be able to negotiate a lower contribution if this is the case. 

As has been stated, they are not obliged to supply two properties with power, although they are in the business of selling electricity, so you might expect that they would have a commercial interest in giving you as much capacity as you are prepared to commit to using. 

we are not going to sell separately, the barns will be used as holiday lets, we are very rural, with only 2 properties beyond ours then the line ends, but i take your point.

Andy72mtb

Section62 said:

Andy72mtb said:

Yes the property has had a power supply all the time it was unoccupied. We thought an upgrade to 2x 80amp fuse would be required, but the spare capacity is insufficient ,I'm not sure of the existing, but the quote was to upgrade to a 25kVA  transformer plus new overhead wires.

If the farm didn't need a three-phase supply, it isn't uncommon for remote rural properties to be supplied by a pole transformer fed by a line with only two phases (the high voltage (11kv) side would only have two, rather than three wires).

Your existing main fuse could be as low as perhaps 40A.  You may be able to check this on a label attached to the electricity company's fuse carrier or service head.  Note: you don't need to (and mustn't) do anything to this equipment, you should be able to find the fuse capacity rating just by looking at the external label.

If this is the kind of arrangement you have then the distribution company may need to replace/upgrade the high voltage overhead wires between the transformer pole and the nearest location where a full 3-phase supply is available.

In which case a cost (to you) of £15k is not out of the ordinary.  There's a lot more work involved than just swapping the transformers over.

Unfortunately (AIUI) if you are seeking an upgrade to the existing supply the distribution company is allowed to pass on whatever proportion of their costs as they see fit.  The fact another dwelling is also supplied by the same wires makes no difference - unless they too were seeking an upgrade.

Section62 said:

Andy72mtb said:

Yes the property has had a power supply all the time it was unoccupied. We thought an upgrade to 2x 80amp fuse would be required, but the spare capacity is insufficient ,I'm not sure of the existing, but the quote was to upgrade to a 25kVA  transformer plus new overhead wires.

If the farm didn't need a three-phase supply, it isn't uncommon for remote rural properties to be supplied by a pole transformer fed by a line with only two phases (the high voltage (11kv) side would only have two, rather than three wires).

Your existing main fuse could be as low as perhaps 40A.  You may be able to check this on a label attached to the electricity company's fuse carrier or service head.  Note: you don't need to (and mustn't) do anything to this equipment, you should be able to find the fuse capacity rating just by looking at the external label.

If this is the kind of arrangement you have then the distribution company may need to replace/upgrade the high voltage overhead wires between the transformer pole and the nearest location where a full 3-phase supply is available.

In which case a cost (to you) of £15k is not out of the ordinary.  There's a lot more work involved than just swapping the transformers over.

Unfortunately (AIUI) if you are seeking an upgrade to the existing supply the distribution company is allowed to pass on whatever proportion of their costs as they see fit.  The fact another dwelling is also supplied by the same wires makes no difference - unless they too were seeking an upgrade.

I believe it is only 40A fuse, the farm was very dated and at the time of being a working farm it probably had a very low power consumption, the electrician had hoped they may be able to run another live from the pole creating the two 80A supplies but the transformer is the weak link, it was suggested that we should approach our neighbour who shares the line and ask them for a contribution ! not sure we'd be invited for Christmas drinks after that. Great content to your reply thank you.

FaceHead

It does seem unfair that you have to pay to upgrade the transformer just because your neighbour got there first. However from their point of view being asked to contribute would be unfair, so seems that's how the cookie has crumbled.

Have you considered making it work with the mains supply you've got? That would mean using solar, wind or similar to get your demand on the mains down to what you have. 

If you have mains gas and are using that for heating and have the option of a CHP boiler too, there might be enough options to find a solution. 

Andy72mtb

FaceHead said:

It does seem unfair that you have to pay to upgrade the transformer just because your neighbour got there first. However from their point of view being asked to contribute would be unfair, so seems that's how the cookie has crumbled.

Have you considered making it work with the mains supply you've got? That would mean using solar, wind or similar to get your demand on the mains down to what you have. 

If you have mains gas and are using that for heating and have the option of a CHP boiler too, there might be enough options to find a solution. 

sadly there's just not enough spare capacity, we will put some solar on the garage eventually, as that's the most suitable roof, but that won't be anywhere near enough, wind is probably too big an investment at present, however we are very exposed and one farm in the valley has one, so planning shouldn't be a problem, no gas it will be oil boiler, it was going to be air source but the winters are too severe for us to be reliant on that type of heating. 

Section62

Andy72mtb said:

I believe it is only 40A fuse, the farm was very dated and at the time of being a working farm it probably had a very low power consumption, the electrician had hoped they may be able to run another live from the pole creating the two 80A supplies but the transformer is the weak link, it was suggested that we should approach our neighbour who shares the line and ask them for a contribution ! not sure we'd be invited for Christmas drinks after that. Great content to your reply thank you.

Yes, I believe that kind of arrangement is common on a lot of farms in remoter areas where levels of yard mechanisation were kept low.  If you aren't running a lot of power-hungry conveyors, augers, mills, grain driers, and workshop machinery, then the additional load from (say) barn lighting isn't that much.

I don't fully understand the technical side of it, but I'm not surprised your electrician's idea is a no-goer. In situations I've been involved in the 230v cables to the building have never been the weak link - I've always assumed because the length used is typically short the electricity companies used a larger CSA cable as standard because the economics worked better that way.  The much much longer links at 11kv were where economies could be made with smaller cables or by using 2-wire 2-phase distribution.

Andy72mtb said:

sadly there's just not enough spare capacity, we will put some solar on the garage eventually, as that's the most suitable roof, but that won't be anywhere near enough, wind is probably too big an investment at present, however we are very exposed and one farm in the valley has one, so planning shouldn't be a problem, no gas it will be oil boiler, it was going to be air source but the winters are too severe for us to be reliant on that type of heating. 

I was going to make a similar suggestion as FaceHead.  A £15k budget is a lot of money towards some form of alternative generation/storage capacity.

Have you gone through the design with the electrician to work out what the high demands are and whether there are alternatives you could explore?

Charging of EV's is going to be one of the major problems faced by people with similar arrangements to yours.  Is that part of your problem, or have you not got as far as that yet?