New boiler - Air source heat pump vs mains gas - future proofing

Reed_Richards

Best of luck with that timing @Bathsheba309. 

Have you had the heat loss survey done yet and sorted out all the radiator sizes you will need?  You've gone up from your initial planned 14 kW heat pump to a 17 kW one and to me, with approximately 9 kW worth of radiators, that seems a lot.

Cardew

Bathsheba309 said:

We have decided to go with an ASHP There are a lot of 'experts' out there, who don't have any experience of ASHPs, prophesising doom and gloom about costs / cold houses etc.

I find comments like this unhelpful.

Is it necessary to for a poster to own something for their comments to be valid?

The two posts above your post are from people who have presumably researched the issue and have decided that they can't make a case for installing an ASHP and they have oil CH whilst you have gas; and there is a general consensus on this forum and elsewhere that gas CH is a better option than an ASHP.

Reed_Richards

Cardew said:
....and there is a general consensus on this forum and elsewhere that gas CH is a better option than an ASHP.

This is the MoneySavingExpert forum!  I would agree that at current fuel prices gas CH is cheaper to run than an ASHP.  It's a much closer run thing comparing running costs with oil and a more difficult comparison because there are no price controls for heating oil and the price can fluctuate a lot.  But it's not all about the money.

If you want to be green then an ASHP will use about one third the amount of fuel to heat your house than oil or gas or conventional electric heating.  And an ASHP runs on electricity of which about 40% (?) is generated renewably.   Even though some of the non-renewable electricity is generated burning gas less efficiently than you can do at home, I still think the numbers stack up in favour of the ASHP as the greenest option.  And so, presumably, does the Government, as they intend to phase out the use of gas boilers completely.

matelodave

If going GREEN saves me money or is financially neutral then I'm all for it, I might even be prepared to spend a bit more if it's got a reasonable payback period but it's also go to be fit for my needs.

So far almost anything with a GREEN label either costs more to buy, more to run or doesn't actually do the job that you want it to.

I'm not against GREEN but we all have to be a bit sensible about how we go about it and how it suits us rather - just my opinion you understand. I think the costs are a lot harder to justify if all you need a new boiler stuck onto the end of an existing working system, especially gas or oil.

I've got a heatpump but not because it was GREEN but there was a hope that it would fulfil my needs and hopefully save me money compared to the manky old storage heaters that I had, so I was starting from scratch.

It did cost more than a complete oil or LPG to installation, but not significantly so and I reckon that it's been reasonably economical to run. Actually when I installed it eleven years ago the Government was still cogitating on the RHI so it was uncertain that it was even going to happen. It took nearly four years before they started paying it and I eventually got £5k over seven years (my last instalment was in April this year).

Reed_Richards

We have just been battered by storms Arwen and Barra; the area where I live was particularly hard-hit by the former.  Our Government believes that climate change is making extreme weather events like this more frequent and that climate change is due to greenhouse gas emissions so you will have to pay one way or the other.  You can pay to be green and you can pay to clean-up afterwards (directly or indirectly).  You'll probably have to do both.

matelodave

I'm not a climate change denier but TBH the climate has been changing for ever and no doubt will continue to change until the world stops spinning and running around like headless chickens wont really stop it changing.

Cardew

Reed_Richards said:

Cardew said:
....and there is a general consensus on this forum and elsewhere that gas CH is a better option than an ASHP.

This is the MoneySavingExpert forum!  I would agree that at current fuel prices gas CH is cheaper to run than an ASHP.  It's a much closer run thing comparing running costs with oil and a more difficult comparison because there are no price controls for heating oil and the price can fluctuate a lot.  But it's not all about the money.

If you want to be green then an ASHP will use about one third the amount of fuel to heat your house than oil or gas or conventional electric heating.  And an ASHP runs on electricity of which about 40% (?) is generated renewably.   Even though some of the non-renewable electricity is generated burning gas less efficiently than you can do at home, I still think the numbers stack up in favour of the ASHP as the greenest option.  And so, presumably, does the Government, as they intend to phase out the use of gas boilers completely.

People are free to install any heating system, for green or financial motives. Albeit Bathsheba309 has focussed on the financial aspects.

My objection was this statement:

'We have decided to go with an ASHP There are a lot of 'experts' out there, who don't have any experience of ASHPs, prophesising doom and gloom about costs / cold houses etc.'

Having made his decision to install an ASHP he seeks to justify it with a sarcastic comment about 'experts' and the implication that unless you have had experience of an ASHP comments on costs and cold houses are invalid.

Where else would the comments about high costs and poor performance come from but those with unsatisfactory experience of heat pumps and the independant trials of retrofitted systems. That is not to say many are happy with their heat pump. 

People who research Heat pumps and decide  that they are unsuitable, do not claim to be 'experts and their opinions should not be sneered at because this poster has decided to buy.

Reed_Richards

Before I installed my heat pump a neighbour told me of a terrible experience he had had with one.  It was both expensive to run and did not keep his house warm.  Fortunately that has not at all been my experience. 

If you try to install a heat pump as a drop-in replacement for a gas or oil boiler then your existing radiators are very unlikely to have the capacity to keep your house warm and the closest you can get will be achieved by running the heat pump at its highest achievable output water temperature which will minimise its efficiency and maximise the running cost.  I suspect this is what has gone wrong in many cases and lead to tales of doom and gloom.  This should not happen if you use an MCS accredited installer.

Bathsheba is a woman's name; I wonder why @Cardew assumes they are a he?  

ispookie666

I did reasonable amount of research and worked up models for 20 years varying gas, electric and oil prices.  I just was not able to break even.  I felt the money could be better spent on solar panels and batteries which would help cut our carbon emissions.  
Everyone to their own, it is always fascinating to hear peoples experiences and "One size does not fit all"

shinytop

Cardew said:

Reed_Richards said:

Cardew said:
....and there is a general consensus on this forum and elsewhere that gas CH is a better option than an ASHP.

This is the MoneySavingExpert forum!  I would agree that at current fuel prices gas CH is cheaper to run than an ASHP.  It's a much closer run thing comparing running costs with oil and a more difficult comparison because there are no price controls for heating oil and the price can fluctuate a lot.  But it's not all about the money.

If you want to be green then an ASHP will use about one third the amount of fuel to heat your house than oil or gas or conventional electric heating.  And an ASHP runs on electricity of which about 40% (?) is generated renewably.   Even though some of the non-renewable electricity is generated burning gas less efficiently than you can do at home, I still think the numbers stack up in favour of the ASHP as the greenest option.  And so, presumably, does the Government, as they intend to phase out the use of gas boilers completely.

People are free to install any heating system, for green or financial motives. Albeit Bathsheba309 has focussed on the financial aspects.

My objection was this statement:

'We have decided to go with an ASHP There are a lot of 'experts' out there, who don't have any experience of ASHPs, prophesising doom and gloom about costs / cold houses etc.'

Having made his decision to install an ASHP he seeks to justify it with a sarcastic comment about 'experts' and the implication that unless you have had experience of an ASHP comments on costs and cold houses are invalid.

Where else would the comments about high costs and poor performance come from but those with unsatisfactory experience of heat pumps and the independant trials of retrofitted systems. That is not to say many are happy with their heat pump. 

People who research Heat pumps and decide  that they are unsuitable, do not claim to be 'experts and their opinions should not be sneered at because this poster has decided to buy.

I have never had an EV but I know they are rubbish.  They're expensive, don't have enough range, public charging points never work and you can't have the heating or AC on because the range plummets if you do.  And they aren't even that green anyway, it's been proven.


I think that's the sort of expert opinion @Bathsheba309 was talking about