Very small cars - the future of EV??

BOWFER

Herzlos said:

turbopete said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The idea of a small economic car for most of the time and then hire a car for other journeys warranting a larger car could well be a sound approach.

The devil will be in the detail.

not much use when the hire cars are also all electric and you need to do something like tow a trailer or cart a family and luggage around.

There's no reason that hire cars couldn't be hydrogen powered, or much bigger EV's.

The lack of towing capacity on anything except the Tesla Model X and I think the Polestar certainly is a hinderance, as there's a real gap in the market. If there was any "normal" family EV available with any towing ability I'd have ordered it already. So  I'm considering going for a huge family EV and a small petrol car for when I need to tow.

Hydrogen....oh god...
It's expensive to buy and very inefficient to produce, it needs transported and it needs stored under pressure.
The vehicle then needs a quite complicated storage and cooling system, which need regular safety maintenance (because it's under pressure).
Holland's first ever Hydrogen bus exploded this week, taking out another bus and the depot with it.
Even larger transport and vehicle companies are turning their back on it, Scania in Feb this year said "the future is BEV"
First Bus have committed to BEV buses in Glasgow and have just opened the UK's biggest charging station in the UK, currently 22 buses and rising to 176 within the year.

Advocado

BOWFER said:

turbopete said:

k6chris said:

I have fallen in love with the Citroen Ami, a tiny, cheap and low range EV which would suit 90% of my journeys, albeit only about 50% of my mileage. Am I completely misguided or is the segment likely to catch on and grow??

yes you are completely misguided in my opinion. if a car doesnt do everything you will need it to do then its not a good buy.

And there we have it, the reason people drive around themselves in massive cars 95% of the time.
Because if it doesn't cater for that one time they need to collect lengths of wood from B+Q, it's "not a good buy"

I live in a 4 bedroom house but it's only the two of us.  And I have a dining room we only use when we have friends/family over.  I have enough space to park several cars but I only have two.  I have a suit I only wear to funerals.

How far do you take it?

Advocado

BOWFER said:

turbopete said:

k6chris said:

I have fallen in love with the Citroen Ami, a tiny, cheap and low range EV which would suit 90% of my journeys, albeit only about 50% of my mileage. Am I completely misguided or is the segment likely to catch on and grow??

yes you are completely misguided in my opinion. if a car doesnt do everything you will need it to do then its not a good buy.

And there we have it, the reason people drive around themselves in massive cars 95% of the time.
Because if it doesn't cater for that one time they need to collect lengths of wood from B+Q, it's "not a good buy"

I live in a 4 bedroom house but it's only the two of us.  And I have a dining room we only use when we have friends/family over.  I have enough space to park several cars but I only have two.  I have a suit I only wear to funerals.

How far do you take it?

BOWFER

Advocado said:

BOWFER said:

turbopete said:

k6chris said:

I have fallen in love with the Citroen Ami, a tiny, cheap and low range EV which would suit 90% of my journeys, albeit only about 50% of my mileage. Am I completely misguided or is the segment likely to catch on and grow??

yes you are completely misguided in my opinion. if a car doesnt do everything you will need it to do then its not a good buy.

And there we have it, the reason people drive around themselves in massive cars 95% of the time.
Because if it doesn't cater for that one time they need to collect lengths of wood from B+Q, it's "not a good buy"

I live in a 4 bedroom house but it's only the two of us.  And I have a dining room we only use when we have friends/family over.  I have enough space to park several cars but I only have two.  I have a suit I only wear to funerals.

How far do you take it?

Have you always had this house?
If you've ended up the 2 of you in a family 4 bed, that's one thing and it's something we will face ourselves in a few years.
And downsizing will absolutely be on the cards, partly for efficiency and partly to enjoy the equity.
If you deliberately bought a 4 bed for the two of you....why?
Anyway, your mode of transport is easier to change as it doesn't involve emotive subjects like friends/neighbours etc.
So we really need to discourage people from driving cars far too big for 95% of their needs.

Herzlos

BOWFER said:

Hydrogen....oh god...

I agree entirely, it's a terrible approach but it's probably the best one for those use cases where BEV somehow isn't going to be possible in 20 years time.  Trucks running 24/7 in remote landscapes with no electricity hookup and no way to generate their own power, or super rapid couriers who need to cover 800 miles with only a 4 minute stop in the middle to pee and inhale sandwiches.

Hopefully by then we'll have realized that there's no need for it.

jimbo6977

BOWFER said:

jimbo6977 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

jimbo6977 said:

If you want a small 2 seat electric French "car" (actually a quadricycle for licensing and taxation purposes) then Aixam already make them. 

https://www.aixam.com/en/e-aixam-range

Except double the price and equally as compromised as the Citroen, making it even more pointless.

The Ami is a 4 wheeled scooter with the (total lack of) comfort or equipment that implies, whereas the Aixams are scaled down cars. 

If you live anywhere warm you might as well have a scooter as an Ami and save yourself EUR 5000.

If you live anywhere cold the Ami will be too uncomfortable and you'll buy a car, or maybe an Aixam. 

The Ami will be bought by what the French call "bobos" as a fashion accessory. 

Have you ever ridden a scooter/moped?
They're really not much fun, the lack of speed means you're bullied into the gutter.
Even as a motorcyclist myself I'd think twice about my daughter getting one.
The Ami though, far less concerning - be quite happy for her to get one at 15/16.
I imagine there'd be a healthy market for used ones, effectively 'passing them down' young users until they're old enough to get a full-size car.

I did used to use a moped/scooter at one time, the main downside was that it got nicked and smashed to bits. The Amis and Aixams are also limited to 28mph as "light quadricycles" (Aixam also make "heavy quadricycles" but not electric ones any more), so they will also be bullied about, especially with an inexperiences 16yo at the wheel. Of course a covered 4-wheeler is drier and more stable than a moped, but with no heater, in the UK it'll steam up something rotten for 8 months of the year and be unbearably cold for 4-6 months as well.  

BOWFER

Herzlos said:

BOWFER said:

Hydrogen....oh god...

I agree entirely, it's a terrible approach but it's probably the best one for those use cases where BEV somehow isn't going to be possible in 20 years time.  Trucks running 24/7 in remote landscapes with no electricity hookup and no way to generate their own power, or super rapid couriers who need to cover 800 miles with only a 4 minute stop in the middle to pee and inhale sandwiches.

Hopefully by then we'll have realized that there's no need for it.

There's only 11 Hydrogen stations in the UK and I'm not convinced that's going to grow in any meaningful numbers, I just don't see the appetite when it's so expensive.
100KM costs around £12 in a Hydrogen vehicle,
£7 in a diesel
£2 in a BEV

Herzlos

BOWFER said:

Herzlos said:

BOWFER said:

Hydrogen....oh god...

I agree entirely, it's a terrible approach but it's probably the best one for those use cases where BEV somehow isn't going to be possible in 20 years time.  Trucks running 24/7 in remote landscapes with no electricity hookup and no way to generate their own power, or super rapid couriers who need to cover 800 miles with only a 4 minute stop in the middle to pee and inhale sandwiches.

Hopefully by then we'll have realized that there's no need for it.

There's only 11 Hydrogen stations in the UK and I'm not convinced that's going to grow in any meaningful numbers, I just don't see the appetite when it's so expensive.
100KM costs around £12 in a Hydrogen vehicle,
£7 in a diesel
£2 in a BEV

It'd only become viable if (a) it becomes cheaper than diesel and (b) it does something batteries can't. Eventually due to either supply or demand, the cost of petrol/diesel will increase drastically.

BOWFER

Herzlos said:

BOWFER said:

Herzlos said:

BOWFER said:

Hydrogen....oh god...

I agree entirely, it's a terrible approach but it's probably the best one for those use cases where BEV somehow isn't going to be possible in 20 years time.  Trucks running 24/7 in remote landscapes with no electricity hookup and no way to generate their own power, or super rapid couriers who need to cover 800 miles with only a 4 minute stop in the middle to pee and inhale sandwiches.

Hopefully by then we'll have realized that there's no need for it.

There's only 11 Hydrogen stations in the UK and I'm not convinced that's going to grow in any meaningful numbers, I just don't see the appetite when it's so expensive.
100KM costs around £12 in a Hydrogen vehicle,
£7 in a diesel
£2 in a BEV

It'd only become viable if (a) it becomes cheaper than diesel and (b) it does something batteries can't. Eventually due to either supply or demand, the cost of petrol/diesel will increase drastically.

I do tend to take an interest in Hydrogen as Aberdeen City Council have set themselves up as 'Europe's Hydrogen hub' and it annoys me.
Firstly, it's not hard to be Europe's hub when no-one else is choosing it - it's like saying you're Scotland's best cricketer....
Secondly, they're just sucking up to oil companies as hydrogen will still need their refineries to make.
There's really nothing I can see that suggests hydrogen will be able to do anything batteries can't, especially with advances in battery tech.
Power density is improving all the time, it's said that 400KWH per KG of battery weight is the point at which electric planes will become widespread.
Well we're at 260KWH per KG right now and improving all the time.

Herzlos

I absolutely agree, I can only really see hydrogen being an appeal to the kind of folk who can't move on from thinking cars can only be fueled by explosive liquid. By the time hydrogen is actually viable, we'll have hit our mythical 600 mile, 5 minute recharge EV's.