Immediately dangerous work in house just completed on

lincroft1710

Chartered Surveyors are not expert on gas or electric installations or regulations. If there is something blatantly obvious such as a gas fire with rubber piping to a gas tap or 3 pin round hole electric sockets they will draw attention to it. Most, if they notice installations are old or possibly not safe will suggest you have them checked by a suitably qualified person.

ejeavons

lincroft1710 said:

Chartered Surveyors are not expert on gas or electric installations or regulations. If there is something blatantly obvious such as a gas fire with rubber piping to a gas tap or 3 pin round hole electric sockets they will draw attention to it. Most, if they notice installations are old or possibly not safe will suggest you have them checked by a suitably qualified person.

Thanks, I fully appreciate this - my issue is that there was a visible problem that is are serious, dangerous and it wasn’t pointed up. 

I have less of an issue with the surveyor that with the builder and building regs officer who signed it all off…

ejeavons

Thrugelmir said:

ejeavons said:

canaldumidi said:

Doubtful asurvey would have revealed this. RICS surveyors are not gas-trained.

Did you get a report from a GasSafe registered engineer? If yes, you might have come-back against that.

Otherwise, it's a hard lesson learned....

Thanks. My understanding is that although they obviously aren’t gas safe engineers, they should be suitably qualified to know when a meter is sitting in a wall cavity and therefore dangerous, as well as an immediately dangerous flue. I guess not from what I’m seeing here!

Would you ask a car salesperson to mechanically inspect a car you were purchasing?  Arguably they are suitably qualified as well as work in the trade. 

  bit of a leap from salesperson to mechanic, no? I wouldn’t expect the estate agent for example to have technically inspected it, but the surveyor is someone I paid to check for issues that were clearly serious or dangerous, and this appears to have been missed.  Apologies if this wasn’t clear in my initial post, but have less of an issue with the surveyor, who of course is not a gas engineer, than with the builder and regs officer who signed it off!

Thrugelmir

ejeavons said:

Thrugelmir said:

ejeavons said:

canaldumidi said:

Doubtful asurvey would have revealed this. RICS surveyors are not gas-trained.

Did you get a report from a GasSafe registered engineer? If yes, you might have come-back against that.

Otherwise, it's a hard lesson learned....

Thanks. My understanding is that although they obviously aren’t gas safe engineers, they should be suitably qualified to know when a meter is sitting in a wall cavity and therefore dangerous, as well as an immediately dangerous flue. I guess not from what I’m seeing here!

Would you ask a car salesperson to mechanically inspect a car you were purchasing?  Arguably they are suitably qualified as well as work in the trade. 

  bit of a leap from salesperson to
mecjainc, no? I wouldn’t expect the estate agent for example to have technically inspected it, but the surveyor is someone I pad to check for issues that were clearly serious or dangerous, and this appears to have been missed.  Apologies if this wasn’t clear in my initial post, but have less of an issue with the surveyor, who of course is not a gas engineer, than with the builder and regs officer who signed it off!

A qualified gas engineer would have to sign the installation off. What paperwork or answers to enquiries did you receive when going through the purchase process? 

lincroft1710

Building Control will only check on the work done. If the submitted plans didn't show the position of the meters, BC wouldn't know that the proposed works made the gas installation unsafe. If the works were carried out in accordance with Building Regs then BC will sign it off, they will not check what is already there.

As you had no contract with the builder who carried out the work, you have no comeback against them


BTW millions of UK homes have meters inside the house

ejeavons

Thrugelmir said:

ejeavons said:

Thrugelmir said:

ejeavons said:

canaldumidi said:

Doubtful asurvey would have revealed this. RICS surveyors are not gas-trained.

Did you get a report from a GasSafe registered engineer? If yes, you might have come-back against that.

Otherwise, it's a hard lesson learned....

Thanks. My understanding is that although they obviously aren’t gas safe engineers, they should be suitably qualified to know when a meter is sitting in a wall cavity and therefore dangerous, as well as an immediately dangerous flue. I guess not from what I’m seeing here!

Would you ask a car salesperson to mechanically inspect a car you were purchasing?  Arguably they are suitably qualified as well as work in the trade. 

  bit of a leap from salesperson to
mecjainc, no? I wouldn’t expect the estate agent for example to have technically inspected it, but the surveyor is someone I pad to check for issues that were clearly serious or dangerous, and this appears to have been missed.  Apologies if this wasn’t clear in my initial post, but have less of an issue with the surveyor, who of course is not a gas engineer, than with the builder and regs officer who signed it off!

A qualified gas engineer would have to sign the installation off. What paperwork or answers to enquiries did you receive when going through the purchase process? 

So we have the final certificate that signs off the extension. We asked for PP which wasn’t provided as it was a permitted development - we did check this and it checks out with size and locality to other properties etc.  

We have today (because I asked) been provided with the details of the builder who carried out the work, whose FB page (no website…) clearly states that they do all work except gas, and so, I would have thought, wasn’t qualified to be messing with the flue, though the sellers haven’t yet said outright if it was them who did the flue, and we now know the previous owner was a builder, so are wondering whether they may even have done that bit themselves. 

ejeavons

lincroft1710 said:

Building Control will only check on the work done. If the submitted plans didn't show the position of the meters, BC wouldn't know that the proposed works made the gas installation unsafe. If the works were carried out in accordance with Building Regs then BC will sign it off, they will not check what is already there.

As you had no contract with the builder who carried out the work, you have no comeback against them


BTW millions of UK homes have meters inside the house

That’s really helpful to understand, thank you. It worries me that there seems to be a lot of loopholes here in terms of building plans and regs! 

Fully appreciated that I don’t have a contractual relationship with the builder, however whatever regulatory body they belong (or don’t) to I’m sure will be interested in their dangerous work, and the regs officer who signed it off. 

Yes cadent said meters inside of house isn’t the issue, it’s that the extension has been built around it and to do that, they’ve basically knocked a big hole in the side of what is now the wall, leaving the cavity exposed to the meter, which I understand is dangerous should the attached pipes leak into the cavity itself. You can also see the floor underneath it. It’s a big mess. 

Section62

ejeavons said:

  bit of a leap from salesperson to
mecjainc, no?

No more than the leap from GasSafe registered engineer/gas network engineer to 'builder' or 'building control officer'.

The current system of surveys is pitched at about the right level IMV.  A surveyor cannot be expected to know and keep current with all the regulations and requirements for gas and electricity installations.

Making any comment on the gas/electric installation beyond "Its installed in the property, get a competent person to test it for you" risks the buyer thinking they have a professional opinion they can rely on with regard to the safety of the system.  Equally, some opinions expressed by surveyors about the inadequacy of installations might mislead buyers/vendors into having unnecessary work carried out.

ejeavons

Section62 said:

ejeavons said:

  bit of a leap from salesperson to
mecjainc, no?

No more than the leap from GasSafe registered engineer/gas network engineer to 'builder' or 'building control officer'.

The current system of surveys is pitched at about the right level IMV.  A surveyor cannot be expected to know and keep current with all the regulations and requirements for gas and electricity installations.

Making any comment on the gas/electric installation beyond "Its installed in the property, get a competent person to test it for you" risks the buyer thinking they have a professional opinion they can rely on with regard to the safety of the system.  Equally, some opinions expressed by surveyors about the inadequacy of installations might mislead buyers/vendors into having unnecessary work carried out.

Sorry if I have inadvertently equated gas safe engineer with builder or BC officer anywhere - have the utmost respect for trades, am therefore even more disappointed in the work that has come to light here. 

Ok so, genuine question here as I am not a trade - who was responsible for ensuring the extension at the property was safe - whether that be gas, electric, or structurally? Because from what I’m learning now it seems that is no one? Theoretically could I submit plans to BC that don’t mention where meters/flue are or that they will be changed in a building project, builder comes and does work, isn’t a gas safe engineer and then BC come and sign off the work, not knowing there is something gas related to look at, and here we are? Am I being dim or is that a gaping hole? 

As I’ve said, fully appreciate the position of the surveyor and expectations on them or not - it’s the builder and BC that I’m really confused/frustrated about. 

canaldumidi

Must admit I sympathise. Despite my explanation earlier about surveyors not being gas-trained, I fully understand that many a buyer would be reassured by the combination of survey and Building Regs certification. Where the gas installations appear newish/good condition etc, as with electrics, a separate inspection is often skipped by many, there being no 'warning' indications.

The parallel with a car salesman is inappripriate. The surveyor IS more akin to a mechanic than a salesman. Perhaps a better analogy would be a VW-trained mechanic inspecting a Bentley (no, OK, not perfect, but better!)