Retailer refusing to refund lost order even though I didn’t specify a safe place & no signature

Sandtree

phillw said:

Sandtree said:
The piece of the puzzle we are missing is what the courier has stated... you say its been delivered and you assume it was left because of the lack of a signature but the courier may be saying they handed it to you/someone in your address and therefore from Zara's perspective its one person's word against another (subject to if there are photos or such as some couriers are doing instead of signatures)

Most of the couriers have wanted to take pictures of the goods once they were inside my property, so if they can't produce that then it doesn't really matter what they say.

Its a tiny minority for us that have wanted to take photos.

The "it doesnt really matter what they say" attitude isnt really that helpful, they can have exactly the same approach to your statement that you've not received it.  Ultimately, as a civil law case, were it to end up in court (highly unlikely) the judge would simply decide if he believed you or the courier.

Littlejennar

Sandtree said:

Littlejennar said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

You'll have to remind them the contract is taken to include a clause that they as the trader will deliver the goods to you the consumer, that you aren't responsible for the actions of their agent whilst this is under taken and that the passing of risk only occurs once the goods come in to your physical possession:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/29/enacted

Passing of risk

(1)A sales contract is to be treated as including the following provisions as terms.

(2)The goods remain at the trader’s risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)the consumer, or

(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

(3)Subsection (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier who—

(a)is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and

(b)is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.

(4)In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after delivery to the carrier.

Thank you so much for this - it’s much appreciated. I will get back to them (they haven’t called) and will quote the above. 

I’m really surprised such a big brand would just ignore all responsibility with this. I will keep pushing.

thank you again. 

The piece of the puzzle we are missing is what the courier has stated... you say its been delivered and you assume it was left because of the lack of a signature but the courier may be saying they handed it to you/someone in your address and therefore from Zara's perspective its one person's word against another (subject to if there are photos or such as some couriers are doing instead of signatures)

I had an email from royal mail to say it was delivered, and it just says that on the tracking. No signature or any photos of it. Unless my postman went off with it himself then I am assuming it’s been delivered. 

But it really isn’t my word against Zara’s, they need to prove I received it and I haven’t. 

Littlejennar

phillw said:

Sandtree said:
The piece of the puzzle we are missing is what the courier has stated... you say its been delivered and you assume it was left because of the lack of a signature but the courier may be saying they handed it to you/someone in your address and therefore from Zara's perspective its one person's word against another (subject to if there are photos or such as some couriers are doing instead of signatures)

Most of the couriers have wanted to take pictures of the goods once they were inside my property, so if they can't produce that then it doesn't really matter what they say.

I had amazon leave a parcel out three days early (I'd made sure I would have been in on the day they said it would be delivered) and it was thoroughly soaked by the time I saw it.

As far as I can tell from the tracking information provided and what’s on the Royal Mail website, there’s no signature or photos of any doorsteps. It just says delivered, so it could be anywhere 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

If it's Royal Mail they hold the GPS data for 7 days, if you contacted the retailer within 7 days of the parcel claiming to be delivered the retailer should really contact Royal Mail to request the GPS data if they wish to dispute the non delivery.

Ultimately as Sandtree says it would come down to the balance of probability in small claims but the law is on the consumer's side.

On the point in general, retailers could agree with couriers to request ID for delivery, it probably isn't practical in real terms but the legislation doesn't consider this. 

It's a fine balance for retailers to deal with false claims vs courier mistakes but simply stating it shows as delivered is as extreme as blindly refunding anyone who says the parcel hasn't reach them. The retailer should be sitting on some kind of middle ground to protect their interests whilst looking after their customers.

Manxman_in_exile

Considering that (1) risk remains with the retailer until goods are physically delivered into the consumer's possession and (2) that it's easier to provide proof that something has been delivered rather than that it hasn't, I think a court (if it ever came to that) could resonably find in favour of the consumer if the courier/retailer has no other evidence of delivery except saying "It's been delivered".  How difficult these days is it to take a photo of actual delivery to the consumer?  It's in the retailer's interest to insist on their courier doing this.

sheramber

 I doubt a retailer can insist on a courier doing anything.

He will engage their services per their terms. 

Nobody is collecting signatures at present.

Littlejennar

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

You'll have to remind them the contract is taken to include a clause that they as the trader will deliver the goods to you the consumer, that you aren't responsible for the actions of their agent whilst this is under taken and that the passing of risk only occurs once the goods come in to your physical possession:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/29/enacted

Passing of risk

(1)A sales contract is to be treated as including the following provisions as terms.

(2)The goods remain at the trader’s risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)the consumer, or

(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

(3)Subsection (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier who—

(a)is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and

(b)is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.

(4)In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after delivery to the carrier.

I sent the above to Zara but have just received this:

Hello Jenna, thank you for your patience. We are sorry to inform you that our relevant department has thoroughly assessed your concern and we are unable to accommodate your request for a replacement or refund for your order. Please be advised that we are unable to find any errors in the delivery process as we have confirmed the order was successfully delivered to the address provided. We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused. Thank you.

I am absolutely at a loss as to why they are being so difficult about this. It was delivered to me when I wasn’t in, and therefore would have been left when I gave no instructions or permission to do so. I am out of nearly £200 and struggling as to what to do next. Any help would be much appreciated. 

DB1904

Littlejennar said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

You'll have to remind them the contract is taken to include a clause that they as the trader will deliver the goods to you the consumer, that you aren't responsible for the actions of their agent whilst this is under taken and that the passing of risk only occurs once the goods come in to your physical possession:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/29/enacted

Passing of risk

(1)A sales contract is to be treated as including the following provisions as terms.

(2)The goods remain at the trader’s risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)the consumer, or

(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

(3)Subsection (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier who—

(a)is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and

(b)is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.

(4)In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after delivery to the carrier.

I sent the above to Zara but have just received this:

Hello Jenna, thank you for your patience. We are sorry to inform you that our relevant department has thoroughly assessed your concern and we are unable to accommodate your request for a replacement or refund for your order. Please be advised that we are unable to find any errors in the delivery process as we have confirmed the order was successfully delivered to the address provided. We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused. Thank you.

Y It was delivered to me when I wasn’t in, and therefore would have been left when I gave no instructions or permission to do so. I am out of nearly £200 and struggling as to what to do next. Any help would be much appreciated. 

Quite simple really, the tracking show it was delivered. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Send them a letter before action and pursue small claims action if necessary. 

Littlejennar

DB1904 said:

Littlejennar said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

You'll have to remind them the contract is taken to include a clause that they as the trader will deliver the goods to you the consumer, that you aren't responsible for the actions of their agent whilst this is under taken and that the passing of risk only occurs once the goods come in to your physical possession:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/29/enacted

Passing of risk

(1)A sales contract is to be treated as including the following provisions as terms.

(2)The goods remain at the trader’s risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)the consumer, or

(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

(3)Subsection (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier who—

(a)is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and

(b)is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.

(4)In that case the goods are at the consumer’s risk on and after delivery to the carrier.

I sent the above to Zara but have just received this:

Hello Jenna, thank you for your patience. We are sorry to inform you that our relevant department has thoroughly assessed your concern and we are unable to accommodate your request for a replacement or refund for your order. Please be advised that we are unable to find any errors in the delivery process as we have confirmed the order was successfully delivered to the address provided. We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused. Thank you.

Y It was delivered to me when I wasn’t in, and therefore would have been left when I gave no instructions or permission to do so. I am out of nearly £200 and struggling as to what to do next. Any help would be much appreciated. 

Quite simple really, the tracking show it was delivered. 

Have you even read the original post? 

As explained several times, the tracking says it was delivered but without any photo of it on my doorstep and without a signature. I wasn’t in at the time so if it really was delivered, it would have been left on my doorstep without my permission or instruction. 

As someone has explained, far more helpfully then you, it is the retailers responsibility to ensure the item is delivered to me. Not my doorstep. Unless I’ve specified so. Which i didn’t