Help for my lodger and overpayment of UC

vyle

I wondered if anybody could provide some advice. 

I have a lodger who has been living with me since 2018. We don't have a tenancy agreement because he moved in when his family kicked him out at 18 and he needed somewhere to live.

He pays me notional "rent" to cover his share of bills.

Last year while on furlough he claimed UC. 

At the beginning of October they contacted him for proof of housing costs and required such things as tenancy agreement, council tax with his name on it etc, but none of these exist. I am the home owner and so all the bills are in my name. 

I wrote a letter to explain this and all he received was unhelpful bullet points stating that the information I provided was not suitable but no explanation as to why. I've listed who I am, the address, how much he pays, when he moved in, that there is no end to the agreement because there is no formal agreement.

We are at a loss as to what we can do short of fraudulently create a fake tenancy agreement but I don't know the implications of what that would be. 

Any advice or helpful phone numbers would be very much appreciated. 

calcotti

Quote their own guidance at them
http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2021-0349/115_Private_Rented_Sector_v17.pdf

Tenants should have a tenancy agreement but they may also have less formal arrangements such as a rent book or verbal agreement with their landlord.

Supporting evidence for new claims and changes of address

Claimants must provide evidence of both of the following to confirm they are:

- legally responsible for making payment of rent - this can be established from the tenancy agreement, rent book, rent receipt or invoice or a letter from the landlord/agent

- living in the property for which they are liable to make payments of rent - this could be established from a utility bill, council tax bill or bank statement in their name and at that property address (if no other proof is available, a letter from the landlord/agent is allowed where this explicitly confirms the claimant is living at the address)

A single letter from a landlord confirming full details of the rent liability listed below, together with confirmation the tenant is living in the property, is sufficient to meet both evidence requirements. (my emphasis)

Evidence of rent liability for new claims and changes of address

Evidence of rental liability is usually contained within a tenancy agreement, which are formal documents. Evidence of rent liability may also be established from handwritten letters or notes from the landlord, a rent book or rent receipts or invoices.

A tenancy agreement or evidence of rent liability should include the:

 tenant and landlord’s name, address and contact details

 address of the property rented

 date the tenancy began and how long the term is for

 amount of rent and how often it is paid

 deposit amounts – this is usually mentioned on the tenancy agreement but

it may not be clear as to whether it has been paid

 signatures in all relevant places by all tenants and landlord/agent

If this fails they will need to request a Mandatory Reconsideration of the decision and if this still fails lodge an appeal with the tribunal service.

tomtom256

If there is no formal agreement in place, I would argue he has no liabiity to pay rent and as such UC would disallow his housing costs.
Creating a fake tenancy agreement would get you nowhere, a real tenancy agreement however would resolve the issue.
The crux is does he have a liability to pay rent, would you evict him if he didn't pay anything?
Notional rent is not a liability.

calcotti

tomtom256 said:

If there is no formal agreement in place, I would argue he has no liabiity to pay rent and as such UC would disallow his housing costs.

That is not what the DWP deposited paper I have quoted says.

Tenants should have a tenancy agreement but they may also have less formal arrangements such as a rent book or verbal agreement with their landlord.

As quoted the document expressly states that a letter from the landlord can be sufficient.

MovingForwards

If you do decide to create a formal agreement, you can download and use a "lodgers agreement", available from shelter.

NedS

calcotti said:

tomtom256 said:

If there is no formal agreement in place, I would argue he has no liabiity to pay rent and as such UC would disallow his housing costs.

That is not what the DWP deposited paper I have quoted says.

Tenants should have a tenancy agreement but they may also have less formal arrangements such as a rent book or verbal agreement with their landlord.

As quoted the document expressly states that a letter from the landlord can be sufficient.

I think the assumption is that a formal letter from a landlord constitutes a legal agreement and that demonstrates liability on behalf of the tenant lodger.

UC are quite clear, if there is no formal agreement, there can be no legal liability and UC will not pay rent, which is what @tomtom256 is referring to. The OP clearly stated there is no formal agreement and on that based UC cannot contribute towards the rent.

Ideally OP and tenant will enter into a formal agreement and agree a tenancy lodgers agreement which will protect both parties.

elsien

MovingForwards said:

If you do decide to create a formal agreement, you can download and use a "lodgers agreement", available from shelter.

This. He’s a lodger not a tenant so don’t muddy the waters with anything other than this. 

calcotti

NedS said:

calcotti said:

tomtom256 said:

If there is no formal agreement in place, I would argue he has no liabiity to pay rent and as such UC would disallow his housing costs.

That is not what the DWP deposited paper I have quoted says.

Tenants should have a tenancy agreement but they may also have less formal arrangements such as a rent book or verbal agreement with their landlord.

As quoted the document expressly states that a letter from the landlord can be sufficient.

I think the assumption is that a formal letter from a landlord constitutes a legal agreement and that demonstrates liability on behalf of the tenant.

UC are quite clear, if there is no formal agreement, there can be no legal liability and UC will not pay rent, which is what @tomtom256 is referring to. The OP clearly stated there is no formal agreement and on that based UC cannot contribute towards the rent.

Ideally OP and tenant will enter into a formal agreement and agree a tenancy which will protect both parties.

A letter from the landlord stating the details is clearly not the same as a legal agreement signed by both parties. The DWP official deposited guidance is, as already referenced, clear that less formal agreements may exist and states that a letter from the landlord should be taken as sufficient evidence provided it includes the details listed. it is, as you suggest, evidence of liability.

OP, I still suggest that your lodger refers UC to the deposited paper as have referenced - but do check that the letter you provided includes all of the details listed.

Obviously it may be in both your interests to have a more formal lodger’s agreement but I don’t think that should be driven by UC.

tomtom256

calcotti said:

NedS said:

calcotti said:

tomtom256 said:

If there is no formal agreement in place, I would argue he has no liabiity to pay rent and as such UC would disallow his housing costs.

That is not what the DWP deposited paper I have quoted says.

Tenants should have a tenancy agreement but they may also have less formal arrangements such as a rent book or verbal agreement with their landlord.

As quoted the document expressly states that a letter from the landlord can be sufficient.

I think the assumption is that a formal letter from a landlord constitutes a legal agreement and that demonstrates liability on behalf of the tenant.

UC are quite clear, if there is no formal agreement, there can be no legal liability and UC will not pay rent, which is what @tomtom256 is referring to. The OP clearly stated there is no formal agreement and on that based UC cannot contribute towards the rent.

Ideally OP and tenant will enter into a formal agreement and agree a tenancy which will protect both parties.

A letter from the landlord stating the details is clearly not the same as a legal agreement signed by both parties. The DWP official deposited guidance is, as already referenced, clear that less formal agreements may exist and states that a letter from the landlord should be taken as sufficient evidence provided it includes the details listed. it is, as you suggest, evidence of liability.

OP, I still suggest that your lodger refers UC to the deposited paper as have referenced - but do check that the letter you provided includes all of the details listed.

Obviously it may be in both your interests to have a more formal lodger’s agreement but I don’t think that should be driven by UC.

They either have a formal agreement to pay actual rent or a non formal agreement to pay notional rent. Notional rent is not a liability to pay rent and with out evidence of eviction etc for non payment of rent, there would not be any liability to pay rent.
If the letter states notional rent and not fixed amounts or a starte date or that it's a rolling contract etc, it does not create a liability to pay rent.

If it states "I joe bloggs, let 1 x bedroom room for sole use and full use of the shared kitchen, living room and bathroom to Bill Bragg and have done so since 01/04/2020 as a roling agreement at the rate of £100 per week. Failure to pay this will result in legal action being taken to evict him from the property" they should pass as having a liability

However if states "I joe Blogs, let 1 x bedroom at a notional rate as we have no actual agreement of what the actual rent is" it would fail and based on OP's comments, I would presume the latter which is why it has been declined at this time.

A formal agreement can be verbal etc, but there has to actually be a proper amount of rent being charged and not just a notional amount. There also needs to be an agreement of what would happen if they failed to pay rent i.e. they would evict as it may be deemed as a contrived tenancy, if no action would be taken.

Presumably OP and lodger can provide evidence of the notional rent being paid weekly/monthly as evidence of the agreement?

calcotti

I have interpreted OPs initial post to mean that a regular amount is being paid which has been agreed and it seems to me that this can constitute rent. If they are random amounts ‘as and when’ to help with bills then I agree they could not be considered rent.

vyle

Thanks all

We've drawn up a lodger agreement using an online form. It is indeed a monthly fixed amount he's been paying so hopefully that should do the trick.