Energy news in general

QrizB

MattMattMattUK said:

A fairly good example of what can happen to any energy network even in an advanced economy, but especially one that has experienced decades of underinvestment. 

Huge power cut causes chaos in Spain and Portugal as trains, traffic lights, and payments hit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t

I'm in Spain right now, on holiday to Barcelona. Was in the city when the power went off - there was still power when I got off the tram, wasn't any power by the time I got to a coffee shop for lunch. Also no coffee!

Everyone seemed pretty chilled about it, to be honest. Probably helped that it was warm, dry and sunny.

Gerry1 said:

Ah, the joys of the cashless society...

I found an ATM that still has power, and have got enough Euros to see me through to tomorrow's flight home. Barcelona airport seems to have a proper plan for a power outage and almost all flights are still scheduled, albeit with delays.

Tonight's dinner was bread and cheese (& my last can of Estrella Damm), not exactly what we'd planned but it'll do!

mmmmikey

As long as we all (a) have smart meters installed, (b) embrace zonal pricing, (c) actively support Ofgem's efforts to regulate the market and (d) pay standing charges without complaint we won't have a power cut like the one in Spain.

That should keep the discussion going for a bit

Scot_39

MattMattMattUK said:

I agree it would make more sense, or just move everyone to variable DD or even pre-pay, I have no issue with either of those options, but the majority of people would be apoplectic due to lack of understanding.

Variable DD using MVDD as is = paying after consumption.

It is exactly the opposite of what suppliers need.

And not what Ofgem presumed as basis for 3 caps,  when calculating the price difference between DD and Standard Credit.

And there are likely many who would struggle with seasonal heating bills in winter -  not everyone has discipline or even basic numeracy to cope.

Take say Octopus and it's 6m customers if all went MVDD - that imposes approx 1 month average delay on payment (28-31 days until computed from day 1 of month, 2 weeks DD delay and 3 days for payment to clear - more at weekends and bank holidays) and all used roughly cap level - so C£1800/12 = £150 just for ease - on average that would be £150*6 million customer - £0.9bn additional debt - or at least that in more negative cash flow.

Say 20m of UK c29m homes in total went MVDD - that would be equivalent to £3bn - in excess of the current debt bill for those in 91 days arrears - but not yet quite as high as the £3.7 bn on 91 days arrears and those already on agreed repayment plans.

Now the 91 days has abviously cost more - as needs financing fo r the longer period - but make no mistake - its a material change to their financing model.

Gerry1

MattMattMattUK David:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

A fairly good example of what can happen to any energy network even in an advanced economy, but especially one that has experienced decades of underinvestment. 

Huge power cut causes chaos in Spain and Portugal as trains, traffic lights, and payments hit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t

Ah, the joys of the cashless society...

Could it be the same thing that's broken Marks & Sparks?

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

It is not really an issue, during a major power power outage mobile networks would last for about six hours then things would start going down, but the PSTN network would only last a few hours as well and in many cases much of it is already no longer PSTN and has not been for a decade.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Wrong.  My cell tower goes off the air the moment my lights go out, and both networks remain off air until about 10-15 minutrs after power is restored.

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

Scot_39 said:

Well we're turning off PSTN and leaving many homes with phones that need power.  Now 2027 was this year - some exchanges already switched.

So don't expect continuity of universal coverage is a major concern for many in power.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Unless there's an emergency such as  a heart attack, stroke, fall, fire, intruder etc.

mmmmikey

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK David:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

A fairly good example of what can happen to any energy network even in an advanced economy, but especially one that has experienced decades of underinvestment. 

Huge power cut causes chaos in Spain and Portugal as trains, traffic lights, and payments hit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t

Ah, the joys of the cashless society...

Could it be the same thing that's broken Marks & Sparks?

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

It is not really an issue, during a major power power outage mobile networks would last for about six hours then things would start going down, but the PSTN network would only last a few hours as well and in many cases much of it is already no longer PSTN and has not been for a decade.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Wrong.  My cell tower goes off the air the moment my lights go out, and both networks remain off air until about 10-15 minutrs after power is restored.

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

Scot_39 said:

Well we're turning off PSTN and leaving many homes with phones that need power.  Now 2027 was this year - some exchanges already switched.

So don't expect continuity of universal coverage is a major concern for many in power.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Unless there's an emergency such as  a heart attack, stroke, fall, fire, intruder etc.

On the flip side, mobile phone networks don't stop working when phone lines are brought down by stormy weather, etc. When I was a child, phone outtages due to damaged phone lines were a fairly regular occurrence and often took a few days to repair. We lived in a rural location.

In order to compare the reliability of mobile vs. landline reliability you need to look at the overall picture. Much easier to provide backup power to a critical phone mast serving a rural community than to simultaneously repair lots of lines all destroyed at the same time by the same storm - which can and does happen.

Be interesting to see any service availability data comparing mobile and wireless telephony if anyone has any. Without that we're all just speculating....

Scot_39

mmmmikey said:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK David:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

A fairly good example of what can happen to any energy network even in an advanced economy, but especially one that has experienced decades of underinvestment. 

Huge power cut causes chaos in Spain and Portugal as trains, traffic lights, and payments hit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t

Ah, the joys of the cashless society...

Could it be the same thing that's broken Marks & Sparks?

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

It is not really an issue, during a major power power outage mobile networks would last for about six hours then things would start going down, but the PSTN network would only last a few hours as well and in many cases much of it is already no longer PSTN and has not been for a decade.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Wrong.  My cell tower goes off the air the moment my lights go out, and both networks remain off air until about 10-15 minutrs after power is restored.

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

Scot_39 said:

Well we're turning off PSTN and leaving many homes with phones that need power.  Now 2027 was this year - some exchanges already switched.

So don't expect continuity of universal coverage is a major concern for many in power.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Unless there's an emergency such as  a heart attack, stroke, fall, fire, intruder etc.

On the flip side, mobile phone networks don't stop working when phone lines are brought down by stormy weather, etc. When I was a child, phone outtages due to damaged phone lines were a fairly regular occurrence and often took a few days to repair. We lived in a rural location.

In order to compare the reliability of mobile vs. landline reliability you need to look at the overall picture. Much easier to provide backup power to a critical phone mast serving a rural community than to simultaneously repair lots of lines all destroyed at the same time by the same storm - which can and does happen.

Be interesting to see any service availability data comparing mobile and wireless telephony if anyone has any. Without that we're all just speculating....

That would only be practical if you assume everyone has both services.

Many elderly I still suspect do not have mobile phones or wont use them even if they did.

We could never get mum to use hers.

mmmmikey

Scot_39 said:

mmmmikey said:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK David:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

A fairly good example of what can happen to any energy network even in an advanced economy, but especially one that has experienced decades of underinvestment. 

Huge power cut causes chaos in Spain and Portugal as trains, traffic lights, and payments hit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t

Ah, the joys of the cashless society...

Could it be the same thing that's broken Marks & Sparks?

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

It is not really an issue, during a major power power outage mobile networks would last for about six hours then things would start going down, but the PSTN network would only last a few hours as well and in many cases much of it is already no longer PSTN and has not been for a decade.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Wrong.  My cell tower goes off the air the moment my lights go out, and both networks remain off air until about 10-15 minutrs after power is restored.

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

Scot_39 said:

Well we're turning off PSTN and leaving many homes with phones that need power.  Now 2027 was this year - some exchanges already switched.

So don't expect continuity of universal coverage is a major concern for many in power.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Unless there's an emergency such as  a heart attack, stroke, fall, fire, intruder etc.

On the flip side, mobile phone networks don't stop working when phone lines are brought down by stormy weather, etc. When I was a child, phone outtages due to damaged phone lines were a fairly regular occurrence and often took a few days to repair. We lived in a rural location.

In order to compare the reliability of mobile vs. landline reliability you need to look at the overall picture. Much easier to provide backup power to a critical phone mast serving a rural community than to simultaneously repair lots of lines all destroyed at the same time by the same storm - which can and does happen.

Be interesting to see any service availability data comparing mobile and wireless telephony if anyone has any. Without that we're all just speculating....

That would only be practical if you assume everyone has both services.

Many elderly I still suspect do not have mobile phones or wont use them even if they did.

We could never get mum to use hers.

That's an argument for making sure we support and protect the vulnerable in my view, not an argument for keeping expensive, unreliable and dated technology in service. Also there are mobile phones now specifically designed for the elderly that look and work just like simple landline phones. If someone gets to the stage that they refuse to use a mobile that looks and works like a normal phone in an emergency, they probably shouldn't really be living on their own or without good care arrangements (which is another discussion for another day, both about how we support our elderly and the availability of care).

QrizB

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK David:

It is not really an issue, during a major power power outage mobile networks would last for about six hours then things would start going down, but the PSTN network would only last a few hours as well and in many cases much of it is already no longer PSTN and has not been for a decade.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Wrong.  My cell tower goes off the air the moment my lights go out, and both networks remain off air until about 10-15 minutrs after power is restored.

The Barcelona phone network stayed up throughout the blackout. Central Barcelona got very congested, only SMS was getting through, but once out in the 'burbs we had solid 4/5g mobile data.

The mobile phone shops etc. were doing a good tracked in transistor radios, and the parks were full of children playing football.

MattMattMattUK

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK David:

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

A fairly good example of what can happen to any energy network even in an advanced economy, but especially one that has experienced decades of underinvestment. 

Huge power cut causes chaos in Spain and Portugal as trains, traffic lights, and payments hit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t

Ah, the joys of the cashless society...

Could it be the same thing that's broken Marks & Sparks?

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

It is not really an issue, during a major power power outage mobile networks would last for about six hours then things would start going down, but the PSTN network would only last a few hours as well and in many cases much of it is already no longer PSTN and has not been for a decade.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Wrong.  My cell tower goes off the air the moment my lights go out, and both networks remain off air until about 10-15 minutrs after power is restored.

It is not wrong, the majority stay on, as I have found out in power cuts and seeing them installed around work they have considerable battery packs at the base of the masts now. Some areas might be deemed less important, or the battery packs may have failed in some situations. 

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Gerry1 said:

Makes one wonder how we'd cope and whether it's such a good idea to switch off the only broadcasting system that can cover the entire UK with only three transmitters.

Scot_39 said:

Well we're turning off PSTN and leaving many homes with phones that need power.  Now 2027 was this year - some exchanges already switched.

So don't expect continuity of universal coverage is a major concern for many in power.

If it was out the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book.

Unless there's an emergency such as  a heart attack, stroke, fall, fire, intruder etc.

None of that supersedes that "the best advice for most people would be to stay at home and read a book", note the use of "most" not "all". 

The_Green_Hornet

Nationalise gas power plants to boost energy security, thinktank urges UK ministers

Common Wealth says private gas-fired stations can charge exorbitant fees when renewable energy is in short supply

“Privately owned gas-fired power plants exploit a unique market power position in the ‘balancing mechanism’, holding the grid to ransom and demanding eye-watering sums of money to supply energy at short notice,” it said..

Nationalise gas power plants to boost energy security, thinktank urges UK ministers | Energy industry | The Guardian