If you were to install a new boiler but want to future proof...

Gavin83

Gas boilers will remain on sale until 2035, which means gas will still be supplied well into the 2040's. That's still seems a long way off. Were I replacing my boiler today there's no way I'd go for anything other than gas right now, the other technologies have too many issues.

I expect by 2035 other technologies will be more mature and a far more attractive option but there's certainly no rush at the moment. I really don't wish to be a pioneer in this. 

Ectophile

Emmia said:

Section62 said:

macman said:

Gas boilers are not going anywhere, not in 2030 or 2035. There will be a ban on them in new builds at some point, but there will have to be a replacement market available for decades going forward-no govt is going to start ripping out boilers in 25m homes by compulsion.

Of course they won't.  In just the same way the government didn't go round seizing cars that only ran on leaded fuel.

The strategy is simple.  Legislate for a ban on new manufacture, tweak taxation to make the economics of leaded (=gas) more expensive, offer incentives to switch (scrappage).

If you believe that replacement gas boilers will be sold in ever decreasing quantities 'for decades' then could you please let me know where I can get my hands on a brand new 1800W vacuum cleaner to replace mine?

macman said:

The gas grid will only be converted to hydrogen if the considerable technical problems of hydrogen extraction can be solved, which could take decades.

Extraction is easy.  But it needs energy (e.g. electricity) which is as easy to transport as gas.  The niche for hydrogen will be as a means of energy storage at times where electricity generation exceeds demand (including battery charging + pumped-storage)

macman said:

We were promised carbon capture years ago, and how far has that moved forward since?

Carbon capture is a developing technology which economically doesn't really make sense to fit to ageing generating plant. Compare/contrast with flue-gas de-sulphurisation which was implemented because the economics stacked up.

Carbon capture isn't comparable with banning gas boilers.  The alternatives to gas - e.g. heat pumps, storage heaters, immersion heaters, instantaneous electric heating - have been around for decades and are mostly mature technologies.  The cost of installation (except heat pumps) is trivial in comparison to the development of production-scale carbon capture.

macman said:

As the OP quite correctly points out, millions of homes with combi's do not have the room for stored hot water, which will be a requirement of solar/heat pump/electric systems. Nor do many flats above ground floor level have anywhere to install heat pumps.

A standard airing cupboard is typically around 0.7m2.  If people don't want to use that floor area for hot water storage then other options are available.  Perhaps a demand for something with a smaller footprint will lead to the ready availability of smaller diameter cylinders which are much taller?

Some out-of-the-box thinking is needed here.

Communal/district heating schemes are also part of the mix.

macman said:

Since a full 37% of our electricity is still generated from gas plant, then I don't expect electricity to become competitive with gas any time soon...

The 'wholesale costs' of electricity makes up only 30% of the retail cost.  'Environmental and social obligations' are 25%, VAT adds another 4.76%.

The 'Environmental and social obligations' costs on a gas bill are 2.46%. (wholesale costs = 41% )

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-advice-households/costs-your-energy-bill

It isn't difficult to see how the price gap between electricity and gas could be narrowed, or even reversed, simply by government policy.

I live in a flat with gas central heating via a combi, and a gas hob - there isn't really room for a hot water tank without substantial rebuilding (the kitchen for example is 2m x 3m, so no room there, even for a small footprint cylinder) and we don't have an airing cupboard. 

The flat is pretty spacious in comparison to many - especially new build. 

You can get little water heaters that are smaller than a combi boiler.  They are popular on the continent, but mostly seen in offices and village halls over here.  But each one only stores enough water for one sinkful.  No use if you have a bath.

Emmia

Ectophile said:

Emmia said:

Section62 said:

macman said:

Gas boilers are not going anywhere, not in 2030 or 2035. There will be a ban on them in new builds at some point, but there will have to be a replacement market available for decades going forward-no govt is going to start ripping out boilers in 25m homes by compulsion.

Of course they won't.  In just the same way the government didn't go round seizing cars that only ran on leaded fuel.

The strategy is simple.  Legislate for a ban on new manufacture, tweak taxation to make the economics of leaded (=gas) more expensive, offer incentives to switch (scrappage).

If you believe that replacement gas boilers will be sold in ever decreasing quantities 'for decades' then could you please let me know where I can get my hands on a brand new 1800W vacuum cleaner to replace mine?

macman said:

The gas grid will only be converted to hydrogen if the considerable technical problems of hydrogen extraction can be solved, which could take decades.

Extraction is easy.  But it needs energy (e.g. electricity) which is as easy to transport as gas.  The niche for hydrogen will be as a means of energy storage at times where electricity generation exceeds demand (including battery charging + pumped-storage)

macman said:

We were promised carbon capture years ago, and how far has that moved forward since?

Carbon capture is a developing technology which economically doesn't really make sense to fit to ageing generating plant. Compare/contrast with flue-gas de-sulphurisation which was implemented because the economics stacked up.

Carbon capture isn't comparable with banning gas boilers.  The alternatives to gas - e.g. heat pumps, storage heaters, immersion heaters, instantaneous electric heating - have been around for decades and are mostly mature technologies.  The cost of installation (except heat pumps) is trivial in comparison to the development of production-scale carbon capture.

macman said:

As the OP quite correctly points out, millions of homes with combi's do not have the room for stored hot water, which will be a requirement of solar/heat pump/electric systems. Nor do many flats above ground floor level have anywhere to install heat pumps.

A standard airing cupboard is typically around 0.7m2.  If people don't want to use that floor area for hot water storage then other options are available.  Perhaps a demand for something with a smaller footprint will lead to the ready availability of smaller diameter cylinders which are much taller?

Some out-of-the-box thinking is needed here.

Communal/district heating schemes are also part of the mix.

macman said:

Since a full 37% of our electricity is still generated from gas plant, then I don't expect electricity to become competitive with gas any time soon...

The 'wholesale costs' of electricity makes up only 30% of the retail cost.  'Environmental and social obligations' are 25%, VAT adds another 4.76%.

The 'Environmental and social obligations' costs on a gas bill are 2.46%. (wholesale costs = 41% )

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-advice-households/costs-your-energy-bill

It isn't difficult to see how the price gap between electricity and gas could be narrowed, or even reversed, simply by government policy.

I live in a flat with gas central heating via a combi, and a gas hob - there isn't really room for a hot water tank without substantial rebuilding (the kitchen for example is 2m x 3m, so no room there, even for a small footprint cylinder) and we don't have an airing cupboard. 

The flat is pretty spacious in comparison to many - especially new build. 

You can get little water heaters that are smaller than a combi boiler.  They are popular on the continent, but mostly seen in offices and village halls over here.  But each one only stores enough water for one sinkful.  No use if you have a bath.

It's not really a substitute for a combi boiler though is it... 

Ectophile

Emmia said:

Ectophile said:

Emmia said:

Section62 said:

macman said:

Gas boilers are not going anywhere, not in 2030 or 2035. There will be a ban on them in new builds at some point, but there will have to be a replacement market available for decades going forward-no govt is going to start ripping out boilers in 25m homes by compulsion.

Of course they won't.  In just the same way the government didn't go round seizing cars that only ran on leaded fuel.

The strategy is simple.  Legislate for a ban on new manufacture, tweak taxation to make the economics of leaded (=gas) more expensive, offer incentives to switch (scrappage).

If you believe that replacement gas boilers will be sold in ever decreasing quantities 'for decades' then could you please let me know where I can get my hands on a brand new 1800W vacuum cleaner to replace mine?

macman said:

The gas grid will only be converted to hydrogen if the considerable technical problems of hydrogen extraction can be solved, which could take decades.

Extraction is easy.  But it needs energy (e.g. electricity) which is as easy to transport as gas.  The niche for hydrogen will be as a means of energy storage at times where electricity generation exceeds demand (including battery charging + pumped-storage)

macman said:

We were promised carbon capture years ago, and how far has that moved forward since?

Carbon capture is a developing technology which economically doesn't really make sense to fit to ageing generating plant. Compare/contrast with flue-gas de-sulphurisation which was implemented because the economics stacked up.

Carbon capture isn't comparable with banning gas boilers.  The alternatives to gas - e.g. heat pumps, storage heaters, immersion heaters, instantaneous electric heating - have been around for decades and are mostly mature technologies.  The cost of installation (except heat pumps) is trivial in comparison to the development of production-scale carbon capture.

macman said:

As the OP quite correctly points out, millions of homes with combi's do not have the room for stored hot water, which will be a requirement of solar/heat pump/electric systems. Nor do many flats above ground floor level have anywhere to install heat pumps.

A standard airing cupboard is typically around 0.7m2.  If people don't want to use that floor area for hot water storage then other options are available.  Perhaps a demand for something with a smaller footprint will lead to the ready availability of smaller diameter cylinders which are much taller?

Some out-of-the-box thinking is needed here.

Communal/district heating schemes are also part of the mix.

macman said:

Since a full 37% of our electricity is still generated from gas plant, then I don't expect electricity to become competitive with gas any time soon...

The 'wholesale costs' of electricity makes up only 30% of the retail cost.  'Environmental and social obligations' are 25%, VAT adds another 4.76%.

The 'Environmental and social obligations' costs on a gas bill are 2.46%. (wholesale costs = 41% )

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-advice-households/costs-your-energy-bill

It isn't difficult to see how the price gap between electricity and gas could be narrowed, or even reversed, simply by government policy.

I live in a flat with gas central heating via a combi, and a gas hob - there isn't really room for a hot water tank without substantial rebuilding (the kitchen for example is 2m x 3m, so no room there, even for a small footprint cylinder) and we don't have an airing cupboard. 

The flat is pretty spacious in comparison to many - especially new build. 

You can get little water heaters that are smaller than a combi boiler.  They are popular on the continent, but mostly seen in offices and village halls over here.  But each one only stores enough water for one sinkful.  No use if you have a bath.

It's not really a substitute for a combi boiler though is it... 

That depends on your lifestyle.  Heat pump for central heating, and under-counter heaters for hot water in the kitchen and bathroom.  Electric shower for the bathroom.  Without the long plumbing runs, you'll get almost instant hot water at the taps.

Bendy_House

A 60 litre unvented cylinder can fit inside a single kitchen base unit. Or, if the OP has a loft, it'll take up a small footprint than their existing CWS. In fact, the boiler could be stuffed up there too...

Of course, the OP would need to confirm what it is they currently assume - their mains supply is 'good', whereas their existing gravity-fed supply is pants (and, as S62 points out, it ain't down to a silly fault).

But, if the OP's demands are likely to remain relatively modest (tho' 60L of 'hot' will still provide a bath), and would ultimately benefit from the addition of PVs or similar, and they want their water supply boosted, and they'd rather remain gasie for the foreseeable future, then a small system boiler supplying a compact unvented cylinder ticks all these boxes. I don't think much else does.