Extension built on drainage/loft without permission

gemma.zhang

We are viewing a house, was told the asking price had dropped by 50k due to previous buyer dropped out as survey flags: extension built on drainage + loft conversion without permission/counsel consent. Both extensions were build 15-20 years ago.

The property is in decent condition, the drainage was covered by kitchen extension built on top, am I naive thinking the worst case is to redo the extension properly which will take around 50k. If anything goes wrong before we get around to extend properly, tactile Solution is to rip off the tiles, fix the drainage and put the removable access on top.  Doesn’t sound the end of the world, am I missing sth?

The loft is small with a window, done nicely with proper staircase, fit enough to be an office but not as a room without building regulation / completion certificate. Any risk of me letting out in future as only an office ( not as a room).

Obviously we cannot not enforce the tenants not to use the room. 

Thanks!

Section62

gemma.zhang said:

We are viewing a house, was told the asking price had dropped by 50k due to previous buyer dropped out as survey flags: extension built on drainage + loft conversion without permission/counsel consent. Both extensions were build 15-20 years ago.

The property is in decent condition, the drainage was covered by kitchen extension built on top, am I naive thinking the worst case is to redo the extension properly which will take around 50k. If anything goes wrong before we get around to extend properly, tactile Solution is to rip off the tiles, fix the drainage and put the removable access on top.  Doesn’t sound the end of the world, am I missing sth?

It depends what the 'drainage' is.

A reasonable worst case is having to remove the extension and not being allowed to build a replacement one.  Or being asked to pay for a diversion of the sewer onto a different route.  Both of which could easily have a financial cost greater than £50k.  That scenario is rare, but not unknown.

Generally it isn't permitted to have manholes inside the house with removable covers.  And very few people who understand the implications would want one anyway.

If redoing the extension properly still means building over a sewer then you may find you can't without first moving the sewer.


The question you need to ask yourself is what did the previous buyer find which made them decide that a £50k discount wasn't enough to proceed.  And that's assuming the previous buyer wasn't offered a more generous discount and still turned it down?

Maybe they didn't want the hassle/risk of sorting it out, or the loss of the additional bedroom was a dealbreaker.

But the vendor being willing to take a £50k hit rather than sorting it out with a few hundred pounds of indemnity insurance would suggest to me that extreme caution is needed, and a great deal of investigation.

gemma.zhang

Thanks a lot for your reply.
we may still ask the seller to sort out the indemnity insurance anyway. 

For this case, what’s the reasonable cost and actions to sort it out properly : redivert the drainage - move further down in the garden, remove rebuild the extension. For a small 3 bed terrace - would it cost a lot more than 50k?

What s the issue with remove-able cover ? If we trust the vendor’s words, it has been there for 15-20 years without any issues. Any other concerns on not doing anything about it, smell an issue? 

Thanks !

FreeBear

gemma.zhang said: What s the issue with remove-able cover ? If we trust the vendor’s words, it has been there for 15-20 years without any issues. Any other concerns on not doing anything about it, smell an issue?

I have an internal man hole cover in an extension - It was the sort of thing that was permitted back in the 70s... It is double sealed, and darned heavy. Never had an issue with smells. The one time I had need to lift the cover, it was <umm> challenging. Required the fabrication of some lifting aids due in part to the weight and judicious application of a large hammer.

Thrugelmir

gemma.zhang said:

Any risk of me letting out in future as only an office ( not as a room).

Is there a safe route out of the building in the event of a fire? 

Section62

gemma.zhang said:

For this case, what’s the reasonable cost and actions to sort it out properly : redivert the drainage - move further down in the garden, remove rebuild the extension. For a small 3 bed terrace - would it cost a lot more than 50k?

As above, it depends completely on what type of drainage it is.  If it would just be your own private drains then you might decide not to do anything at all.  Or diverting them might cost a few thousands.

If it is something like a S24 sewer, i.e. serving two or more properties, then the water company will make the decision what to do and that could vary from a few thousands to a few tens of thousands depending on the exact circumstances.

The 'worst case' is discovering there's a main, strategic (or even trunk) sewer under the extension.  The cost then is likely to start at five-figures and go upwards.  The cost won't relate to the type of property, it would be the type of sewer and the complexity of diverting it.

You would be incredibly unfortunate to have a strategic or trunk sewer in the back garden of a 3-bed terrace... but again, why was the previous buyer spooked, even with a £50k discount?

If you wanted to proceed you'd need to find out what kind of sewer it is and where it runs to/from.  Some of that information may only be obtainable by contacting the water company though - with implications for the validity of any indemnity policy you get.

gemma.zhang said:

What s the issue with remove-able cover ? If we trust the vendor’s words, it has been there for 15-20 years without any issues. Any other concerns on not doing anything about it, smell an issue? 

Sewer/drain accesses under floors in buildings are generally prohibited now.  If you needed the water company's consent for one in special circumstances they are very unlikely to agree.

If it is properly sealed and bolted down then neither smell nor flooding are likely to be issues.  However, the reason for having a manhole is to allow inspection and access for rodding/jetting, sometimes for pumping out.  That means people and equipment need to be in the space around the manhole - and the equipment, even if clean when going in, will come out covered in all kinds of stuff most people wouldn't want in their house.  If the manhole cover could be left bolted down and never opened then it isn't an issue - but that isn't why manholes are installed.

As for going 15-20 years without problems, that is entirely plausible.  But it is meaningless when the neighbours a couple of doors down could have visitors tomorrow who try flushing nappies (say) down the toilet.  Blockages can happen at any time, and over the last 20 years or so the variety of things people think they can flush has steadily increased, just as common sense has apparently declined.  [/jaded+cynical]

gemma.zhang

Thrugelmir said:

gemma.zhang said:

Any risk of me letting out in future as only an office ( not as a room).

Is there a safe route out of the building in the event of a fire? 

Don’t think so. There is a tiny window on the slope, but no escape window. 

It does have proper staircase, plastered, radiator electricity.

is it easy for us just to make an escape window ? 

gemma.zhang

Section62 said:

gemma.zhang said:

For this case, what’s the reasonable cost and actions to sort it out properly : redivert the drainage - move further down in the garden, remove rebuild the extension. For a small 3 bed terrace - would it cost a lot more than 50k?

As above, it depends completely on what type of drainage it is.  If it would just be your own private drains then you might decide not to do anything at all.  Or diverting them might cost a few thousands.

If it is something like a S24 sewer, i.e. serving two or more properties, then the water company will make the decision what to do and that could vary from a few thousands to a few tens of thousands depending on the exact circumstances.

The 'worst case' is discovering there's a main, strategic (or even trunk) sewer under the extension.  The cost then is likely to start at five-figures and go upwards.  The cost won't relate to the type of property, it would be the type of sewer and the complexity of diverting it.

You would be incredibly unfortunate to have a strategic or trunk sewer in the back garden of a 3-bed terrace... but again, why was the previous buyer spooked, even with a £50k discount?

If you wanted to proceed you'd need to find out what kind of sewer it is and where it runs to/from.  Some of that information may only be obtainable by contacting the water company though - with implications for the validity of any indemnity policy you get.

gemma.zhang said:

What s the issue with remove-able cover ? If we trust the vendor’s words, it has been there for 15-20 years without any issues. Any other concerns on not doing anything about it, smell an issue? 

Sewer/drain accesses under floors in buildings are generally prohibited now.  If you needed the water company's consent for one in special circumstances they are very unlikely to agree.

If it is properly sealed and bolted down then neither smell nor flooding are likely to be issues.  However, the reason for having a manhole is to allow inspection and access for rodding/jetting, sometimes for pumping out.  That means people and equipment need to be in the space around the manhole - and the equipment, even if clean when going in, will come out covered in all kinds of stuff most people wouldn't want in their house.  If the manhole cover could be left bolted down and never opened then it isn't an issue - but that isn't why manholes are installed.

As for going 15-20 years without problems, that is entirely plausible.  But it is meaningless when the neighbours a couple of doors down could have visitors tomorrow who try flushing nappies (say) down the toilet.  Blockages can happen at any time, and over the last 20 years or so the variety of things people think they can flush has steadily increased, just as common sense has apparently declined.  [/jaded+cynical]

Thanks for the reply. This is really helpful.

We don’t know if there are other reasons the buyers walked away, If this is the only reason they walked away, I would be quite happy to proceed with 50k drop in price, as this is more than enough to redo the extensions. But I can understand first time buyers might be nervous with all the hassle comes with it plus the loft issue.

But saying that a friend just told me you can’t apply to move main hole/drainage for terrace house. If that is the case, are we ok just to replace like to like.. without submitting full application / building reg etc. 

We put though an offer 38k under and rejected. Well will rethink if we should move on..

Section62

gemma.zhang said:

But saying that a friend just told me you can’t apply to move main hole/drainage for terrace house.

You can always apply - the issue is whether there is a solution the sewerage undertaker is willing to accept, and whether you have the budget to pay for it.  That budget might involve some 'goodwill' payments to neighbours to get them onside.

gemma.zhang said:

If that is the case, are we ok just to replace like to like.. without submitting full application / building reg etc. 

Not sure what you mean... replace what, and how?

gemma.zhang

Section62 said

gemma.zhang said:

If that is the case, are we ok just to replace like to like.. without submitting full application / building reg etc. 

Not sure what you mean... replace what, and how?

I meant if there was anything wrong with the drainage that we need to dig it out, then replace the extension like for like. Don’t think would involve building application / control. 

Just a thought.

btw - are there any Insutance that covers drainage issue which results in clearance / rebuild, not indemnity insurance. 

Thanks ! 

RS2OOO

I've been offered an indemnity cover in a not dissimilar situation and it does clearly state it covers the demolition and rebuild costs (and loss of value if rebuild isn't permitted) in the event of a successful enforcement action against me.

Additionally, a majority of drainage repairs these days are done without a requirement to dig since modern methods allow drains to be re-lined in situ, as long as there's nearby manhole access.