Govt. plans to target mortgages to EPC's could leave many homes unsaleable

Doozergirl

[Deleted User] said:

Doozergirl said:

another_casualty said:

Doozergirl said:

You should probably re-read your signature and follow your own advice, @another_casualty


Have you read the thread?  There's a
sensible conversation happening, which you're welcome to join.  

Thanks@Doozergirl for the advice . 

This is true it is a sensible conversation which I have joined.
I'm trying to work out how am I supposed to pay for a new boiler for example if my present one is ripped out . How much would it cost to pay to get a Victorian converted flat up to standard ? Why should  we pay ? Obviously loft insulation isn't much of an issue . 

Home owners have a responsibility to maintain their properties etc but for all of this green issue to be rammed down our throats by 2030 when we will still have to pay for everything doesn't seem possible .   It is possible I have got the wrong end of the stick of course..

Your choice is to pay either in upgrading the house or in increasing energy costs.  Fossil fuels are a finite resource, even if you don't care about your own consumption.  

I have insulted many, many houses over a period of two decades. We've had a very long time to start taking this seriously.  There's no throat ramming.    The state of our planet shouldn't be a party political thing but some will offer to help consumers more than others.  If you're not going to vote for anything then you will get what you are given.  

Problem is a lot of people, especially FTBs, are struggling to afford houses already. With extra cost an no assistance it's just going to make the situation worse.

They are the ones that should be paying less for an unimproved house.  

I've spent a long time on this forum pointing out that it isn't all
kitchen and bathrooms.  Maybe now people will be forced to wake up to the fact that the fabric of the building is what needs improving, not the aesthetic. 

The more I think about this, the happier I am that we start recognising what awful
housing stock we actually have and start doing something about it.   

maisie_cat

martindow said:

Niv said:Mine is 400 yo and part cob and obviously no cavity walls etc. I think a D rating would be an achievement!

I would imagine tht a thick cob wall could have quite good insulating properties.

It does, but the the current EPC can't deal with it so the assessor chooses the best fit in his tick list

ComicGeek

NameUnavailable said:

Section62 said:

Chandler85 said:

While EPC are full of assumptions, because lets face it, the guy has about 10 minutes to do it, they will continue to be ignored unless mortgage companies force them to be taken into account.  Which makes the system worse, if you have people who assume things and then give you a rubbish EPC, so you can't sell your house as easily due to a 10 minute assessment.

For them to be useful they need to be done properly, not all double glazing is the same.  I've seen double glazed houses that the EPC says needs the single glazed windows replacing etc, and these are new EPCs.  It is like the assessor just doesn't look.  Though to be fair, I had a surveyor tell me a glazed internal door was not safety glass and needed replacing due to being dangerous.  The door had laminated glass in it and was perfectly safe, the glass even said in the corner it was laminate...

I touched on this point the other day.  The current EPC system is rubbish in part because people don't treat it seriously. 

People are going to need to pay for good quality energy assessments (in the same way some pay for a level 3 survey) if they want to demonstrate their (non-standard) property actually has a performance level far in excess of the nonsense the current box-ticking exercise produces.

I wasn't aware that we could order a 'basic/cheap' EPC or a 'quality' one, it's just an EPC - what you say makes sense but that relies on a complete change to the current system and there's no mention of that in any of the stuff I've read about what EPC's are going to mean for landlords and home buyers/sellers in a few years time.

So how exactly do you go about getting a good quality assessment?

I have been producing SAP calculations for new build houses/flats for over 20 years now, and have been producing detailed EPCs for new builds since they were introduced - not to be confused with the simplistic EPCs for existing dwellings, these are very detailed in terms of insulation, air tightness and thermal bridging details.

Even as a chartered engineer and lots of experience, I still had to sit through the simplistic training course to produce EPCs for existing dwellings - the problem is that there just weren't enough experienced assessors to meet demand, so the govt had to lower standards.

To provide a quote, arrange a date/time, drive to the house, do the survey, complete all the paperwork and lodge the EPC, paid etc took me about 2 hrs on average. I needed to charge £150+vat to do it properly - when other assessors started to charge £40 (no vat) to provide the 'same piece of useless paper' as some saw it, then there wasn't any way I could carry on offering this service. With lodgement and travel costs, ongoing admin and training costs, I knew assessors working on less than the minimum wage.

So I'll happily keep sitting in my office working on new build schemes only for more money, and not have to deal with joe public. 

You get a good quality assessment when firstly you pay enough to cover the costs of experienced assessors, and when the govt software is flexible enough for these experienced assessors to adjust things - neither is going to happen with a mass market product like an EPC, which is trying to standardise something that varies massively between dwellings and even between different occupants in the same dwelling.

lookstraightahead

Doozergirl said:

[Deleted User] said:

Doozergirl said:

another_casualty said:

Doozergirl said:

You should probably re-read your signature and follow your own advice, @another_casualty


Have you read the thread?  There's a
sensible conversation happening, which you're welcome to join.  

Thanks@Doozergirl for the advice . 

This is true it is a sensible conversation which I have joined.
I'm trying to work out how am I supposed to pay for a new boiler for example if my present one is ripped out . How much would it cost to pay to get a Victorian converted flat up to standard ? Why should  we pay ? Obviously loft insulation isn't much of an issue . 

Home owners have a responsibility to maintain their properties etc but for all of this green issue to be rammed down our throats by 2030 when we will still have to pay for everything doesn't seem possible .   It is possible I have got the wrong end of the stick of course..

Your choice is to pay either in upgrading the house or in increasing energy costs.  Fossil fuels are a finite resource, even if you don't care about your own consumption.  

I have insulted many, many houses over a period of two decades. We've had a very long time to start taking this seriously.  There's no throat ramming.    The state of our planet shouldn't be a party political thing but some will offer to help consumers more than others.  If you're not going to vote for anything then you will get what you are given.  

Problem is a lot of people, especially FTBs, are struggling to afford houses already. With extra cost an no assistance it's just going to make the situation worse.

They are the ones that should be paying less for an unimproved house.  

I've spent a long time on this forum pointing out that it isn't all
kitchen and bathrooms.  Maybe now people will be forced to wake up to the fact that the fabric of the building is what needs improving, not the aesthetic. 

The more I think about this, the happier I am that we start recognising what awful
housing stock we actually have and start doing something about it.   

I agree with this.

im in my 50s and have recently moved into a house 200 years old which needs some work doing but we can live in.
My parents wouldn't have bought it because they like everything done as they lived in times where it was hard to get warm. Most of my friends are in relative new builds, and my kids, nieces and nephews who are in their 20s aren't interested in this type of property as you can't hang a standard door that fits properly etc and can't see beyond a fitted kitchen and matching door handles.

Most would rather buy a new house on a flood plain between a motorway and an industrial park. 

p00hsticks

Gavin83 said:

Thrugelmir said:

Gavin83 said:

Section62 said:

Chandler85 said:

The more long term answer is surely to upgrade the electricity infrastructure to everywhere and also increase power generation from renewal sources, such as tidal, wind, solar, hydro electric etc.  Maybe Nuclear as well.

This isn't really the whole answer.  Even renewables have an environmental impact, let alone the financial cost.  The future is going to require us to use energy more carefully, and use a lot less of it, rather than simply creating more generating capacity to maintain the status quo.

Before you suggest it energy rationing is not an answer. There is no way in a million years any Government would be brave enough to suggest such a policy. 

Perhaps people are going to have to return to a time of thinking for themselves and not expect the nanny state to resolve all their problems for them. 

I would see the sufficient supply of energy as a basic requirement of any Government.

Tell that to the lot that privatised it all......

Hedgepigs

I am clearly in the minority as I am looking to buy and have been looking at epcs - though do agree they need to be taken with a pinch of salt. I can only imagine more people will take an interest as times go on, especially going into a period where money is likely to be tighter, regardless of what the government says anyway.

I want to know roughly what the running costs will be, not just what the mortgage costs will be, especially as energy costs are only going one way at the moment. And if there are any quick wins to improve that - the number of houses with no or very little loft insulation is surprising! 

I am a ftb so probably a bit on the paranoid side though.

Section62

p00hsticks said:

Gavin83 said:

I would see the sufficient supply of energy as a basic requirement of any Government.

Tell that to the lot that privatised it all......

Does that mean you would only expect to be able to buy petrol/diesel from the state fuel company that sets the prices to meet the (traffic reduction) policies of the government of the day?

Remember the fuel duty escalator?

What would have happened without commercial interests to lobby the government to keep road fuel prices affordable for those least able to afford it?

Bonniepurple

ic said:

NameUnavailable said:

I wasn't aware that we could order a 'basic/cheap' EPC or a 'quality' one, it's just an EPC - what you say makes sense but that relies on a complete change to the current system and there's no mention of that in any of the stuff I've read about what EPC's are going to mean for landlords and home buyers/sellers in a few years time.

So how exactly do you go about getting a good quality assessment?

I'd agree its pot-luck what rating you get.  Just looked back at my old end-of-terrace house's EPC. With a condensing boiler, cavity wall insulation, 300mm loft insulation, triple glazed windows and doors, and full LED it scored D.  The mirror image house at the opposite end of the terrace got an EPC a week later (I presume for landlord, as house hasn't been sold) - with an old gas boiler, no cavity wall insulation, 50mm loft insulation, old double glazing, wooden front door and full LED lighting... it scored D. 

Likewise a flat we rent out scored EPC band D ten years ago. The latest EPC has scored it with zero improvements at band C.

Clearly, if you don't score a good enough rating, just pay for another EPC with another assessor.  Keep getting EPCs until you score the rating you need!

When we put our old home on the market, we were offered a new EPC assessment. After discussion, we were told that the old one was still valid, and, despite changing from a 30 year old Baxi Bermuda back boiler to a new condensing boiler, upgrading the lights AND putting in new double glazing, the rating would probably remain the same.  Needless to say we didn’t bother to pay for a new EPC.  I also didn’t bother to look at the EPC for our new home.

Section62

Gavin83 said:

Section62 said:

Chandler85 said:

The more long term answer is surely to upgrade the electricity infrastructure to everywhere and also increase power generation from renewal sources, such as tidal, wind, solar, hydro electric etc.  Maybe Nuclear as well.

This isn't really the whole answer.  Even renewables have an environmental impact, let alone the financial cost.  The future is going to require us to use energy more carefully, and use a lot less of it, rather than simply creating more generating capacity to maintain the status quo.

And how do you suggest that’s achieved? As time goes on more and more houses are built and each has more and more electrical devices in it. With the push to electric cars this’ll just push up demand further.

Note I said 'energy', not electricity.  But sticking with electricity, despite all the additional houses built, and more people living in them, were you aware that the UK's final user electrical consumption has decreased from 349TWh in 2005 to 296TWh in 2019 (pre-pandemic).  Consumption in 2020 fell further to 280TWh, showing how changes in our activity can have a significant impact on total use.

The trend has been the reverse of what you expected.

However, reducing the use of gas, petrol and diesel will certainly result in an upward change in the consumption of electricity.

The point is that we cannot reasonably expect to supplant our gas, petrol and diesel usage with an endless supply of electricity.  A quick look at the Mtoe data for the different energy sources shows just how unrealistic that expectation is.

There will need to be a meeting-in-the-middle between increased generation and reduced demand, with a big dollop of smarter usage added on top.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1006701/DUKES_2021_Chapter_5_Electricity.pdf

Gavin83 said:

Before you suggest it energy rationing is not an answer. There is no way in a million years any Government would be brave enough to suggest such a policy.

Fuel duty escalator?  Congestion charging (in London)?  You might not see that as a form of rationing, but that is what it amounts to.

'Rationing' will be through the age-old governmental technique of taxation, rather than the paper coupons of the 70's.  And definitely not switching off the electricity supply as happens in some less-developed countries.

Would you have said in early 2000 when a packet of fags cost an average of £3.67 that no government would be brave enough to push the average price up to £11.44?  I'm sure there were lots of people who would have done.  Let's resume this conversation in 2040 when people will marvel at how you could once buy gas for heating at any time of day for a couple of pence per kWh.

(Average cost of fags data)
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/czmp

MovingForwards

I do find these threads interesting and they always make me dig out my EPC to check what it said.

My flat is over 110 years old and rated C, if I add cavity wall insulation and a condensing boiler it will move up 8 points and be rated C.

The alternative options are external insulation with cavity wall insulation, biomass boiler, air or ground heat pump, micro CHP.  

Bills are estimated to be £1776 over 3 years. Based on the 17 months I've owned the property, it means I estimate £1316 over 3 years. However, from next month I won't be WAH, my OH started commuting last month and in theory electric use will reduce by pennies a day.

Realistically, what can I do that isn't cost prohibitive and doesn't fundamentally alter the look of my property and potentially add problems.

Must double check my neighbours EPC as that doesn't have CH or a gas supply, back in a bit!