Households in England and Wales to be offered new £5,000 Government grant from April 2022

Reed_Richards

This £5000 grant will probably give you less money than the current Renewable Heat Incentive scheme.  But with the RHI you get paid your subsidy once a quarter over 7 years so you have to fund the up-front installation costs yourself.  But if you can find a way to do that and get your heat pump installed in time then you may end up better off.    

Gerry1

Dave Brown in The Independent is a genius...

shinytop

QrizB said:

worlestone said:

I expect that, like us, you'll not qualify if you don't have gas to replace.  We are all electric, not gas supply to the village, so buy default we use 'green energy', not carbon usage to decrease which is what this initiative is about.  Once again we miss out, just like the Green Deal last year

Electricity isn't green yet; as I type it's around 200g CO2/kWh. Not far off the 227g/kWh for burning natural gas.

https://electricityinfo.org/forecast-carbon-intensity/

But as an all electric house moving from direct to a heat pump, I'm using about 40% of the electricity I did.  I can't control how it's generated but I'm definitely not using as much of it.  In fact, the dirtier its generation is, the greener I am being. 

wittynamegoeshere

worlestone said:

wittynamegoeshere said:

I don't think £5k is enough to swing the balance for anyone with a gas supply.

For anyone like us without gas, I was going to get one anyway so it's essentially free money.  Except for the fact that it will probably just result in prices being artificially high, so really it's a gift from the govt to the installers.

I expect that, like us, you'll not qualify if you don't have gas to replace.  We are all electric, not gas supply to the village, so buy default we use 'green energy', not carbon usage to decrease which is what this initiative is about.  Once again we miss out, just like the Green Deal last year

I'm very keen to see whether that is or isn't the case.  I'm hopeful that we will qualify.  We heat with electric but have a disused fireplace stove contraption that we don't use, but lots of country folk do heat their house by burning stuff including coal so heat pumps would shift demand from fossil fuels to electricity.

I'd also hope that the additional advantage of it resulting in cleaner less toxic air would justify it too.  Burning wood is allegedly carbon-neutral but spews out all kinds of toxic chemicals.

Also I'd expect our electricity consumption to reduce as a result of installing one, which is definitely greener and better all round.

ginger_chocolate

Does anyone know how disruptive the installation process is? My interest has been peaked by this scheme, but one thing that bothers me is the thought that it might involve tearing up half my house in the process.

Also whether the utility bills will go up and, if so, by how much.

gefnew

This might help.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-59088957

Verdigris

ginger_chocolate said:

Does anyone know how disruptive the installation process is? My interest has been peaked by this scheme, but one thing that bothers me is the thought that it might involve tearing up half my house in the process.

Also whether the utility bills will go up and, if so, by how much.

How long is a piece of string? It depends on many factors.

The least disruptive case would be the main ASHP being sited outside, a smaller inside unit might go where the original boiler was sited, hot water cylinder replacement and some/all radiators changed for larger ones, to compensate for lower water temperatures.

shroffn

I did this analysis on installing an air source heat pump for our UFH and hot water when we had our home fully renovated a few years ago. Here's what I found and fully backed up by the engineer at the pump manufacturer I spoke to. Very well known and respected brand in the industry. Note that with improvements in manufacturing and technology, this information may need updating:

Didn't make economic sense
1) A standard ASHP can get output water temperature up to 35-40C at best. A more powerful or double unit might get you up to 65C. If you are looking to store hot water for later use, unless your pump is right next to your storage tank or your connecting pipework is incredibly well lagged, that is not hot enough. Deadly legionella bacteria will survive. You need to get the water in your tank up to at least 65C or a regular basis to kill the bacteria (WHO guidance). ASHP are now available with output temp of 75C. Units are very expensive and multiples of any £5k grant.
2) If the output water temperature isn't hot enough, you will need to use an immersion heater or boiler to increase the water temperature. So it is likely you will still need the use of your existing heating equipment. For example, our UFH is designed to work optimally with water at 55C.
3) At the time, electricty cost x4 the price of gas per kWh and assuming 90% efficiency of a modern gas boiler. ASHP at best give you x4 the energy output of the electricty you use to power them. So there is no economic saving during use. The current cost of electricty to gas on the same basis is about x3.5 - not buch better.

Didn't make environmental sense
1) You are very unlikely ever to fully offset the additional environmental impact in the production, shipping, installation and running of the ASHP. Also, all of these generate huge amounts of CO2. The only hope is that all electricty is from renewable sources and that's not happening for a very long time as populations continue to increase and demand for electricty spirals upwards.

So what did I do? Installed a very good quality and highly efficient gas boiler. Properly insulated and lagged everything. Also looked at heat recovery from grey (used but not toilet) water but same cost, efficiency issues and additional impossible placement constraints in building we live in. Thermostats set to 21C max and told the kids to wear more clothes in the colder months if they felt cold.

In the current economic circumstances, and knowing how the building trade work, the £5k grant will be mostly swallowed up by price increases for supply and labour. I'm not saying that the scheme and having an ASHP might not be the right thing to do but can't help but think the Insulate Britain mob have a very good point even if the delivery method of the message is problematic.

Verdigris

shroffn said:

I did this analysis on installing an air source heat pump for our UFH and hot water when we had our home fully renovated a few years ago. Here's what I found and fully backed up by the engineer at the pump manufacturer I spoke to. Very well known and respected brand in the industry. Note that with improvements in manufacturing and technology, this information may need updating:

Didn't make economic sense
1) A standard ASHP can get output water temperature up to 35-40C at best. A more powerful or double unit might get you up to 65C. If you are looking to store hot water for later use, unless your pump is right next to your storage tank or your connecting pipework is incredibly well lagged, that is not hot enough. Deadly legionella bacteria will survive. You need to get the water in your tank up to at least 65C or a regular basis to kill the bacteria (WHO guidance). ASHP are now available with output temp of 75C. Units are very expensive and multiples of any £5k grant.
2) If the output water temperature isn't hot enough, you will need to use an immersion heater or boiler to increase the water temperature. So it is likely you will still need the use of your existing heating equipment. For example, our UFH is designed to work optimally with water at 55C.
3) At the time, electricty cost x4 the price of gas per kWh and assuming 90% efficiency of a modern gas boiler. ASHP at best give you x4 the energy output of the electricty you use to power them. So there is no economic saving during use. The current cost of electricty to gas on the same basis is about x3.5 - not buch better.

Didn't make environmental sense
1) You are very unlikely ever to fully offset the additional environmental impact in the production, shipping, installation and running of the ASHP. Also, all of these generate huge amounts of CO2. The only hope is that all electricty is from renewable sources and that's not happening for a very long time as populations continue to increase and demand for electricty spirals upwards.

So what did I do? Installed a very good quality and highly efficient gas boiler. Properly insulated and lagged everything. Also looked at heat recovery from grey (used but not toilet) water but same cost, efficiency issues and additional impossible placement constraints in building we live in. Thermostats set to 21C max and told the kids to wear more clothes in the colder months if they felt cold.

In the current economic circumstances, and knowing how the building trade work, the £5k grant will be mostly swallowed up by price increases for supply and labour. I'm not saying that the scheme and having an ASHP might not be the right thing to do but can't help but think the Insulate Britain mob have a very good point even if the delivery method of the message is problematic.

Utter nonsense.

QrizB

Verdigris said:

Utter nonsense.

Agreed (although the cost comparison with mains gas in point 3 is nearly accurate).

I was going to answer each point in details but had an attack of the couldntbearseds ...