Garden Boundary - Adverse Possession Question

Section62

ciderboy2009 said:

PennineLady said:

Yes Ciderboy, there are specific/detailed measurements. Back in the early 60s there are 2 outside toilets also shown which were demolished and then a flimsy wire fence appears to have been put in place where they thought it should go... long before my time.

Ok, in that case then your first step should be to get a surveyor in to confirm your thoughts and mark out where the boundary actually should be.

I would very much disagree with that advice.  Getting in a surveyor is a sure way of winding up the neighbour.

The neighbour is happy with the position of the fence.  The OP is happy with the new position of the fence.  The future buyers no doubt will be delighted with everything, including the position of the fence.

Let that sleeping dog lie.

TripleH

Looking at it from a new owner perspective:

Neighbour : that's my land.

New owner : which bit?

Neighbour : that foot on the other side of this fence I've built that's shown as yours on the title deeds.

New owner : I have a nice long sleeve jacket and padded wall room if you need a lie down?

(Said tongue very much in cheek)

As you're looking at moving, play it safe and boring, by all means cover the concrete from view with gravel / plants to make it look nice.

Bendy_House

PennineLady said:

Bendy_House said:

Do you have Leg Prot on your house insurance?

A good point Bendy House but unfortunately I don't

That's a shame - just in case it escalates unexpectedly and beyond your control (ie, he actually tries to make it 'legal', which would be nuts). I wasn't at all suggesting 'taking action'.

But LegProt is very useful just from an advice point of view - you can usually call them up and have a chat with a legal expert. Very reassuring. It does not mean it's an 'action' or a 'dispute', both of which, of course, you'd want to avoid if possible. It can just be good to have the confirmation that you are almost certainly on safe ground, and also advice on how to handle any dealings with the neighb.

Still curious about this, Pennine:

Can you clarify the following - "To make things worse, there are big & ugly concrete mounds at the bottom of each fence post. He won't level them off or break them down because he says they are actually on his land due to Adverse Possession. So, not only are we not allowed to do anything about the concrete, we're apparently not even allowed to touch the foot gap."?

Which fence posts have these lumps of concrete - the old ones, or the new? If 'old', then get someone in to break them up if you wish (or DIY...). If 'new', however, I think I'd personally be considering how it could be counter-productive to try and have them removed, as this will likely damage/loosen his new fence, and you really don't want that...

Oh, when you do finally move, for gawd's sakes add LP - it's usually only ~£25, and often included. When is your current insurance due for renewal? Add it. They won't normally cover pre-existing issues, but they will still give 'advice'. (And, actually, you can play the incident 'innocently' - "The guy put up the new fence a few months back where the true boundary lies, which I was pleased about. But now - gasp! - he's started claiming he has AP over a foot of my land, as clearly shown on the deeds...")

Pennine, are there any other indicators of where the true boundary should be? Eg, where is the true - deed's - boundary shown in relation to the two demolished toilets? And can you tell where these toilets were located? Are your houses detached? Are they symmetrical? Is the boundary shown as behind central betwixt them?

Section62

Bendy_House said:

That's a shame - just in case it escalates unexpectedly and beyond your control (ie, he actually tries to make it 'legal', which would be nuts). I wasn't at all suggesting 'taking action'.

But LegProt is very useful just from an advice point of view - you can usually call them up and have a chat with a legal expert. Very reassuring. It does not mean it's an 'action' or a 'dispute', both of which, of course, you'd want to avoid if possible. It can just be good to have the confirmation that you are almost certainly on safe ground, and also advice on how to handle any dealings with the neighb.

The issue in this case though is that phoning legal protection will create a record of a dispute of some kind. That could come back and bite the OP hard if the 'dispute' is not declared in the conveyancing and the buyer subsequently takes action.

As things stand the OP has plausible deniability - they didn't think the neighbour's mutterings were serious, because nobody seriously claiming AP would do so whilst moving their boundary feature to the correct legal boundary.

I don't disagree that LP can have its uses, and getting the reassurance you refer to is one of them.  Also, people shouldn't rely on the advice given on forums like this one.  So with that caveat, and stopping short of saying the OP should have 100% confidence in the comments given in this thread, the lack of dissenting voices regarding the validity of the neighbour's thinking ought to give an equivalent level of confidence to that which might be given by a LP helpline operator. (in neither case can the risk of a problem or further issues occurring be ruled out though)

Furthermore, because the OP is in the position of getting ready to sell, they will likely be engaging a legal professional in the not to distant future to handle their side of the conveyancing.  Were the neighbour to do anything a bit silly, the best approach would be to use that professional (engaging them earlier than planned, if necessary) who will have ready access to all the documentation and could confidently advise on the true situation without delay.  They will then have the requisite knowledge of the 'dispute' and how it was handled to reassure the buyer's solicitor - rather than having to reference the advice of the LP helpline.

In this case, the better approach is to do the least possible - on the assumption the neighbour was blowing hot air - and wait to see how the situation develops.

GoogleMeNow

Section62 said:

PennineLady said:

Bendy_House said:

Do you have Leg Prot on your house insurance?

A good point Bendy House but unfortunately I don't

I wouldn't worry about that.  You are getting ready to market your property, so contemplating anything even remotely 'legal' at this time would be unwise.

It is unlikely your eventual buyers will pay substantially more or less for the property with/without this extra foot of land.  What might cause you problems is being in a (legal) dispute with your neighbour.

As things stand the fence is now sitting on the legal boundary, what the buyers see will accord with the title plan. (although a foot difference cannot be detected on a plan without dimensions anyway)

All you really need to concern yourself with is making the garden look neat and tidy so it doesn't put people off, or invite difficult questions too early in the conveyancing process.

Once the buyer has a solicitor on board they will be quickly advised of the veracity of the neighbour's 'adverse possession' theory.

^ This ^

OP, please do not contemplate opening a can of worms by trying to sort this out in a formal sense.
The new fence is now the boundary.  Anything on your side of the fence is now yours.  The title plan agrees with this.  
Cover the concrete with shrubs/plants and try to blend it in with the existing garden.  

rexmedorum

I'm wondering why, if the neoighbour is so sure the land is theirs, did they put the new fence on their own land instead of replacing the existing fence. Could it be because secretly they ealised the land wasn't theirs?
If they'd just replaced the existing fence the OP would probably not have noticed or at least not complained.

TripleH

The neighbour has inadvertently saved the Op a lot of hassle by erecting the boundary in the correct place now rather than it all unravelling 3 weeks before completion in a chain 6 months down the road.

Otherwise I suspect no-one might be any the wiser.