Share of freehold/neighbours

TripleH

If you look at it from the other freeholder's perspective, a random stranger turns up out the blue and begins asking them questions about their home. To them you are not a potential co-owner of the property as you can still walk away from the purchase, you are a stranger.

The vendor may also want you to provide evidence that you are committed to the purchase before introducing you. You could walk away tomorrow and they might be onlybpreparedvto expend extra effort on 'serious buyers who are committed'.

You might have jumped the gun a little here in your enthusiasm, plus they may well have had a particularly hard 18 months and you could have caught them off guard. (Sorry not trying to be blunt).

This might well be worth revisiting nearer to completion (or even once you complete), you may have to be a little too apologetic and say enthusiasm got the better of you. It might also be that previously they kept to themselves and everything was done over email?

FataVerde

eddddy said:

If the loft is demised to you - then you don't have to pay a premium to the joint freeholder for altering it

But if the roof itself belongs to the freeholder, and you want to cut holes in it to make windows, etc - the joint freeholder can ask for a premium or refuse consent.


You also need to read the lease to see what it says about alterations. Usually they say you need the freeholder's consent, but consent cannot be unreasonably withheld.

And they'll be legal costs etc for getting the leases updated.

Brilliant eddddy, thanks! I have a great solicitor, but the vendor only recently sent the lease over and he's now on leave for a week. I know so little about share of freeholds that all the wisdom here is at least flagging the questions I should ask. I do think the lease is the key as is a conversation with my solicitor about it. I plan to extend the loft in a few years, but more immediately, I plan to renovate the place a bit: change carpets for hardwood floors, redo the kitchen and maybe some of the house layout. I also want to keep a pet (a cat so hopefully not a contentious issue) and to occasionally sublet the place when my university sends me to work abroad for a couple of months. These are the aspects I suspect I might need the neighbour's cooperation on.

Slithery

FataVerde said:
...change carpets for hardwood floors...

This is usually prohibited by most leases.

FataVerde said:
I also want to keep a pet (a cat so hopefully not a contentious issue) and to occasionally sublet the place when my university sends me to work abroad for a couple of months.

These are also things that many leases don't allow.

Letting the property for a few months is a non-starter. You can't start the eviction process until at least 6 months have passed if the tenant doesn't wish to leave and it could take years to get your property back.

FataVerde

AlexMac said:

That is surely a Q for your solicitor. 

As a total amateur, I'd guess that if you really do own it, you can do what you like with it, within the usual constraints of Permitted Development and with Building Regs Approval, which I'm sure you've already researched via the Planning Portal.

However, you cannot - indeed, must not - trust whatever the "EA claimed".

The lease and possibly the Freehold Company Memorandum and Articles of Association should clarify this (the Mem & Arts are the Constitution of the Freehold Company, assuming the Freehold is owned by a  Registered Limited Company as is usual).   

Your solicitor will ask for these documents as part of seeking the usual responses to the LPE; Leasehold Property Enquiries forms which they'll send to the sellers' Solicitor at an early stage. She or he will interpret these to clarify exactly what you're buying, detail of how the Company operates / how any voting works. service charge arrangements for shared expenses or maintenance and whether both you and the downstairs leaseholders are Co-Directors or Members of the Freehold Company.   But rather than waiting for their usual comprehensive Report including all this and the Search results near the end of the work they do for you, I assume you'll ask for an early advice on this one key point?

 

In fact, assuming the Freehold is owned by a  Registered Limited Company as is usual, you may even be able to download the Mem&Arts from the entry at Companies House?   
Either way, I'd worry if the lease is silent on any of this stuff, as competent leases spell out exactly which areas are shared and who is responsible for things which are usually joint - such as roof repairs, external decor, gutters, sewers, loft tanks if any, damp, etc.

That's the legal bit, but, speaking from experience of being a shared freeholder of three flats in the past, I'm aware of the need to maintain good relations.  I'm also slightly surprised at the claim that the loft will be demised with the upper flat.  That wasn't the case in any of the three conversion flats we owned, although they were larger units, typically of 6 flats, so maybe everything was a bit more formal.  Even where loft spaces were only accessible from the top floor flat, they were still regarded as communal; we even chipped in to the bloke upstairs' loft insulation by that logic!  

So ask yer solicitor; that's what you're paying her for.  And even if you can do it without approval of payment, be appreciative that them downstairs may resent the noise and nuisance of building work above their home!

Good luck untangling it.  I assume it's worth doing if the  loft extension (at £20-30k?) adds more value than it costs? 

There is no company. Just two flats sharing the freehold of the ground and first floor of this terraced house. It's a pretty common arrangement in this area and often the loft is demised to the first floor flat. I don't take the EA's word for it, but my offer was conditional on the information they provided. 

I don't plan to extend the loft to add value to the property. I plan to live here for as long as I need to be in London, possibly until pension given my stable job, and I need a second room. That's why I am going for a house with extension potential, to avoid selling and rebuying. 

The costs of a loft extension currently stand at £60,000 just for the extension, plus planning or any other permission costs. Right now, houses with the loft converted sell for less than I would pay by buying this flat + paying for loft conversion.

FataVerde

pretamang said:

if you can't talk directly to the other freeholder before purchase (and I don't blame them for politely refusing - I'd be wary about sharing details of my house & lease informally to what is effectively a stranger) I would ask the seller (through your solicitor) for details and copy paperwork of previous maintenance for the past 10 years.

If the share of freehold is working well and they collaborate on these things this paperwork should be readily to hand Even if your vendor has only been there 2/3 years they should have asked for the same and hold it to pass on. Can they demonstrate they've taken their responsibilities seriously and kept up with maintenance?

Great points! I'll make sure to ask my solicitor about this. The vendors have owned the house for 6 years and they have made 0 improvements/renovations judging by the photos of the house when they bought it. I don't know if this is because they did not want to invest or because the neighbour is difficult to deal with. The house has changed hands a lot in the last 10 years (even sold every 2-3 years), but this is not so unusual in London. Meanwhile, the downstairs flat has been owned since the 1990s.

FataVerde

Slithery said:

FataVerde said:
...change carpets for hardwood floors...

This is usually prohibited by most leases.

FataVerde said:
I also want to keep a pet (a cat so hopefully not a contentious issue) and to occasionally sublet the place when my university sends me to work abroad for a couple of months.

These are also things that many leases don't allow.

Letting the property for a few months is a non-starter. You can't start the eviction process until at least 6 months have passed if the tenant doesn't wish to leave and it could take years to get your property back.

Yet everybody does it. I sublet the place I rent in London. I always do it through my employer so it's basically colleagues. Clearly there is no such thing as ownership in the UK. You pay half a million for a London flat and can't keep a pet? Ridiculous. I've also seen tons of upstairs flats with hardwood floors. But I guess the lease holds the key to all these mysterious ways of this medieval leasehold law.

bbat

Were you sent a copy of the lease too? You could get a head start on questions to your solicitor if you have a copy to read now?

Slithery

FataVerde said:

Clearly there is no such thing as ownership in the UK.

Of course there is, you just need to buy the property outright instead of renting it on a lease.

FataVerde

bbat said:

Were you sent a copy of the lease too? You could get a head start on questions to your solicitor if you have a copy to read now?

Nope, EA refuse to send it to me, just to the solicitor.  It's unbelievable. So I told them my mortgage application will be delayed until my solicitor is back from vacation. 

NameUnavailable

FataVerde said:

Slithery said:

FataVerde said:
...change carpets for hardwood floors...

This is usually prohibited by most leases.

FataVerde said:
I also want to keep a pet (a cat so hopefully not a contentious issue) and to occasionally sublet the place when my university sends me to work abroad for a couple of months.

These are also things that many leases don't allow.

Letting the property for a few months is a non-starter. You can't start the eviction process until at least 6 months have passed if the tenant doesn't wish to leave and it could take years to get your property back.

Yet everybody does it. I sublet the place I rent in London. I always do it through my employer so it's basically colleagues. Clearly there is no such thing as ownership in the UK. You pay half a million for a London flat and can't keep a pet? Ridiculous. I've also seen tons of upstairs flats with hardwood floors. But I guess the lease holds the key to all these mysterious ways of this medieval leasehold law.

The lease conditions are there for a reason. Hard flooring will almost certainly create more noise than a carpeted flat. It depends on whether neighbours complain or not. If they did complain then the freeholder would ask you to rectify the breach of the lease (fit carpets) so it's a risk you have to decide to take.

As for pets most leases have a clause about not keeping animals that may cause a nuisance to others. I viewed a flat recently and there was poo in the communal hallway from someones pet. I like animals but I don't like people who don't care about others and let their pets foul outside and don't clean it up!

Subletting is often allowed subject to permission - you have to advise your freeholder and they may make some kind of administration charge. Some leases however don't allow it under any circumstances.

Read the lease!