Loft conversion (Merged)

lycane

ElizabethRose said:

lycane said:
it is an attic above, there shouldn't be any tenants above

Why can't there be tenants in an attic? Are you suggesting that the property hasn't been covered correctly?

yes, it wasn't and the council doesnt know about it as well

Titus_Wadd

We report noise from a building site via The Noise App on my mobile phone.  This records and measures the noise for 30 seconds and send the report and clip direct to the Environmental Health department at our local council.  Our situation is different in that we are reporting not the decibel level but the incidents when there is work on site outside prescribed hours.  I think we had to be invited to use the App to allow it to forward the reports to the correct Council; it was certainly EH that suggested it.  I'm not sure a creaking floor board would be long enough (30 seconds) for the App to measure it.

If you are hoping for a quick response we have been reporting the noise nuisance via a log for 18 months (200 incidents) and via the App for about 9 months and the site is still in breach of its planning condition.  I can only see it as being useful as part of a wider complaint so OP, if you have stronger areas of complaint they might be more effective routes towards change.  Certainly the more evidence you can collect the better but we have found the whole process more frustrating than the actual noise: the Council asked for a written log and after a year they wanted us to call out the out-of-hours team to come out and witness the noise because the log wasn't enough and they move the goal posts again even having witnessed the site being operational on a Bank holiday and other excluded times and they have still decided not to take action even though numerous households are affected.  We concluded that the whole evidence-gathering exercise was to make us feel we were working towards some sort of relief, but the harm done didn't warrant spending public money on any sort of enforcement.  That, or the Council head and the builders are drinking buddies or Masons or know where the other's bodies are buried.

Sorry to sound like the bitter voice of doom but I have very little confidence in Council processes; but if you get any joy please come back and tell me how.

lycane

Titus_Wadd said:

We report noise from a building site via The Noise App on my mobile phone.  This records and measures the noise for 30 seconds and send the report and clip direct to the Environmental Health department at our local council.  Our situation is different in that we are reporting not the decibel level but the incidents when there is work on site outside prescribed hours.  I think we had to be invited to use the App to allow it to forward the reports to the correct Council; it was certainly EH that suggested it.  I'm not sure a creaking floor board would be long enough (30 seconds) for the App to measure it.

If you are hoping for a quick response we have been reporting the noise nuisance via a log for 18 months (200 incidents) and via the App for about 9 months and the site is still in breach of its planning condition.  I can only see it as being useful as part of a wider complaint so OP, if you have stronger areas of complaint they might be more effective routes towards change.  Certainly the more evidence you can collect the better but we have found the whole process more frustrating than the actual noise: the Council asked for a written log and after a year they wanted us to call out the out-of-hours team to come out and witness the noise because the log wasn't enough and they move the goal posts again even having witnessed the site being operational on a Bank holiday and other excluded times and they have still decided not to take action even though numerous households are affected.  We concluded that the whole evidence-gathering exercise was to make us feel we were working towards some sort of relief, but the harm done didn't warrant spending public money on any sort of enforcement.  That, or the Council head and the builders are drinking buddies or Masons or know where the other's bodies are buried.

Sorry to sound like the bitter voice of doom but I have very little confidence in Council processes; but if you get any joy please come back and tell me how.

thanks for it! We were using different apps before and this one seems to be perfect however the Council states that they do not deal with noise caused by poor insulation. The fact is they do not even know this house is divided into flats. We have enough of this landlord and seeking to move however the damage they caused already is unbelievable and we will go into legal process anyway. The landlord thinks he is a country himself with his own rules in his properties and do not comply with the UK ones perfectly gaslighting you and giving the 'impression of legality'

TripleH

Do you pay council tax, is the house classed as a house of multiple occupancy?

I agree with the above that the Council may not give much enthusiasm to noise issues BUT if there us a possibility that they are missing out on collecting income they may be a lot more enthusiastic to come round and look at multiple issues.

Bear in mind that if the landlord is not doing things properly, the tenants could face bills for unpaid council tax.

lycane

TripleH said:

Bear in mind that if the landlord is not doing things properly, the tenants could face bills for unpaid council tax.

I doubt it can happen as the landlord is paying for the current council tax and the house is not properly divided so there is no way to pay for it because flats do not exist. He is pretending it is HMO overcharging for energy as well, not heating the flats etc.

But even if they do it that will be a reason to request all money back from the landlord for the entire renting period as the flat rented was not was guaranteed by the contract.

Jude57

OP, please understand that I do get how awful it is to have to deal with noise from neighbours. However, if this landlord is as bad as you say, then report him to Building Control, Council Tax and HMRC, all of whom will look into your claims. You will not be named to the landlord and it won't be a quick process but they are the ones who can take action if appropriate.

I'm not sure what claim you think you'll have against the landlord when you leave but be aware that you won't qualify for Legal Aid and will have to fund any prosecution yourself. No-win, no-fee solicitors will only take cases with a very high likelihood of success and their fee agreement with you will ensure their costs, which will be many thousands, are paid before you will see a penny of any money a court awards you. Plus, these agreements often have clauses requiring you to pay their out of pocket expenses (disbursements) which include court costs and other fees. If you lose your case, you may be ordered to pay the landlord's costs, again, potentially many thousands.

Even if you go down the Small Claims route and represent yourself, you will be asked to quantify what your material losses are and what you did to mitigate (minimise) those. In English courts, you don't get to drop evidential bombshells, you have to disclose all your evidence in advance. A halfway decent solicitor would argue that things couldn't have been that bad if you didn't report them to the appropriate authorities. 

If you haven't already done so, speak to Shelter, who are the experts and can give you advice on the whole situation.

lycane

Jude57 said:

OP, please understand that I do get how awful it is to have to deal with noise from neighbours. However, if this landlord is as bad as you say, then report him to Building Control, Council Tax and HMRC, all of whom will look into your claims. You will not be named to the landlord and it won't be a quick process but they are the ones who can take action if appropriate.

I'm not sure what claim you think you'll have against the landlord when you leave but be aware that you won't qualify for Legal Aid and will have to fund any prosecution yourself. No-win, no-fee solicitors will only take cases with a very high likelihood of success and their fee agreement with you will ensure their costs, which will be many thousands, are paid before you will see a penny of any money a court awards you. Plus, these agreements often have clauses requiring you to pay their out of pocket expenses (disbursements) which include court costs and other fees. If you lose your case, you may be ordered to pay the landlord's costs, again, potentially many thousands.

Even if you go down the Small Claims route and represent yourself, you will be asked to quantify what your material losses are and what you did to mitigate (minimise) those. In English courts, you don't get to drop evidential bombshells, you have to disclose all your evidence in advance. A halfway decent solicitor would argue that things couldn't have been that bad if you didn't report them to the appropriate authorities. 

If you haven't already done so, speak to Shelter, who are the experts and can give you advice on the whole situation.

we didn't report him yet because he is unpredictable and we already lost enough to risk our health more. We will report him immediately after moving out without staying in the middle of it, being vulneralble. Yes, we were thinking about small claims, it is not much you have to pay. Regarding evidences this is why we are doing it now, gathering everything. I do not know how can we access the health loss but we will figure it out, the conditions at home had direct impact on our work performance as well since none of us was able to sleep and this will be easy to prove and count.

Regarding  Council Tax and HMRC as far as I know they will ask about personal details of us, have no idea with Building Control.

Also the noise is not from neighbours themselves as much, but from the building that wasn't properly converted but this is another issue as professionals do sleep during night and this was said to us while informing about the neighbours. They wouldnt be noisy if there would be proper ceiling but they definitely do not sleep at night.

lycane

Jude57 said:

then report him to Building Control, Council Tax and HMRC, all of whom will look into your claims. 

btw would Building Control check it? As they are dealing with buildings what are not safe for the public?

Section62

Doozergirl said:

Building Control is toothless after a year - I've even complained about ongoing work without approval and they'e said they can't check it without being invited in?! 

So depressing when the people who are meant to be enforcing the law don't understand the law they have a duty to enforce....

(England and Wales)

95 Power to enter premises.

(1)Subject to this section, an authorised officer of a local authority, on producing, if so required, some duly authenticated document showing his authority, has a right to enter any premises at all reasonable hours—

(a)for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is, or has been, on or in connection with the premises, a contravention of this Act, or of any building regulations, that it is the duty of the local authority to enforce,

etc...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/55/section/95

Unless it is a factory or other workplace 24 hours notice is required.  Alternatively a warrant can be obtained to permit entry without notice - and also in cases of unoccupied property, or where entry is refused etc etc.  Entry can then be by force if necessary.

Titus_Wadd

If the loft conversion is a boarded floor for designed for storage not habitation footsteps above you would be very loud.  I don't think a Building Regs complaint will get you any relief.  I'd be inclined to report it to the Housing Dept at your Council; you can mention the noise and express concerns that the loft tenants probably lack a safe electricity supply or fire escape route.

I'd also contact Shelter because your tenancy probably lacks the required safety checks, protected deposit etc which they can advise on.

Trying to claim back all the rent you have paid seems a very long shot but having some direct advice about your tenancy from Housing or Shelter might focus your expectations. 

My own experience of planning enforcement and noise abatement have massively lowered my expectation of these functions from my local council; by which I mean they have done absolutely nothing even when they have witnessed and recorded breaches themselves.  If the public cost to enforce outweighs the harm done they won't enforce.  Concentrate on improving your current living conditions now rather than storing up "a claim" for later, would be my advice.

Maybe you could ask a moderator to merge your threads so folk can read the context?  Since there's a link to the past thread, I'd just stick with this one for any supplementary questions you might have.