Railway PPN

carolinen07

Morning all,

Train station has signs up regarding parking and the stipulations (see attached) sign

Scenario – Driver Used train in the morning to go into the city (In receipt of ticket and issued copy of this). Return journey made and drove to collect child locally (on this train journey, the car was not parked in the station car park). 

After collecting child driver drove back to the station; spotted a space and parked up. The intention was to take the train to another location to meet a friend. Walked from the car to a local shop to make a purchase and in that time the plans had changed and instead took a walk on the canal.

Came back to a car parking notice (PPN) attached to windscreen. 

To throw a spanner in… Email has been sent (and not waited for anything to be sent via post as suggested with the forum… Although to be fair, they requested ticket on the signage – of which there is a copy of …)

Copy of the ticket to the email address on the PCN (multiple email sent over a few days as the address given on the notice was not a valid one and the email kept coming back… so had to google another address!!). 

After showing receipt of ticket, returned correspondance few days later stating they checked CCTV… Details are in the email  received back as below… (Some details been taken out as have heard they sometimes trawl forums such as this…) 

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Thank you for your e-mail concerning the issue of Penalty Parking Notice xxxx

CCTV has been reviewed of the car park on DATE . The vehicle can be seen to enter the car park at 14.30  the driver exiting the vehicle at 14.35. The driver then walks away from the station having not used the facilities and returns at 15.59.

The driver then leaves the car park at 16.11  having not used the station or train service. Having received correspondence from our partners trainline, I can confirm that the ticket  purchased on the SAME DATE was not purchased until 16.07. This does not constitute being a rail user.

 

We are experiencing problems at XXXXXX  station in the car park area, with people abusing the facilities, particularly a high number of Non-Rail Users using the Northern Rail car park facilities, which is why we have had to introduce this Penalty Parking Notice scheme. 

 

The car park is now policed on a regular basis to ensure that the car park users are in fact Northern Rail users and everybody is complying with Railway Byelaws. 

 

Your vehicle was indeed observed parking at XXXXX  station on the DATE  and the occupant was observed not visiting the station and a penalty was duly issued. It is on the onus of the car park user to read the signs in place and ensure that their vehicle is always legally parked .

 

Our investigations have now been completed into the Penalty Parking Notice that was issued to your vehicle on the DATE . As you were not a rail user Penalty Parking Notice XXXXX  was correctly issued to your vehicle and remains outstanding. Please forward the outstanding amount of £50.00 to the Freepost address below within the next 14 days, making all postal orders payable to Northern Trains Limited. Alternatively payment can be made by calling 0844 409 2717 and paying by debit/credit card; online at www.northernrailway.co.uk/paymynotice Failure to pay within the time specified will result in additional charges being incurred.

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So, I plan on fighting and here is my rationale 

1 – Inappropriate location of signage (not visible) – See images

There is only ONE sign stipulating the ‘rules’ and this is on a lamppost which is not (in my argument) seen from all angles… The sign is only facing towards the station, so if you were to park in a space coming from the road (which occurred) you would not see the sign…

2 – Signage wording ‘Intend to travel by train from this station’. The ‘intention’ was there, it was just not followed through for change of plans. It’s VERY vague signage wording?!

Following this train of thought in relation to wording (excuse the pun…)

3 – They state in their email (confirming the charge is still payable) ‘walks away from the station without using facilities’ and ‘driver then leaves the car park at xxxx having not used the station or train service’. 

There are three different entrances to the train station (one main entrance, one side (I suspect these two will have CCTV) and one off a main road). How can they be sure driver did not use another entrance?

Additionally, their wording ‘contradicts’ the signage, as they have thrown in their using ‘the station’. How can they be sure driver did not park up to meet someone off the train (ergo USING the station) but then for whatever reason this did not materialise?

4 - Travel was conducted by train that morning (open return from 7.22am) However, it does not stipulate any time conditions on when the user of the car park can park. (Not sure if this is too ‘out there’?

5 – Just for note – they reference another train ticket being purchased at 16.07 ‘after contacting trainline’. I am not sure how they are correlating ‘a ticket’ to this car?!?!? 

Any advice, as always, would be appreciated. I apologise for the length of the post but hopefully I have made it as clear as possible…

** NB. I am currently at work and so can upload the actual PPN (with information redacted), but it has the correct time, car details, wording etc. Only thing blatantly wrong with the ticket is they give the wrong email address to contact them with (all evidenced with bounced emails..)

daveyjp

Bingley station, byelaw ticket.

Rule 1, don't reveal the driver. 

Rule 2, see rule 1, review what you have written and see if rule 1 has been covered off.

Fruitcake

It should time out after 6 months if a case in the Magistrates' Court has not been brought by then.
The driver can and the owner may be liable, but the keeper cannot where railway byelaws apply.

If the driver has been identified then you need to string this out past 6 months.

Who actually issued the PPN? Was it the TOC or an agent such as SABA?

carolinen07

daveyjp said:

Bingley station, byelaw ticket.

Rule 1, don't reveal the driver. 

Rule 2, see rule 1, review what you have written and see if rule 1 has been covered off.

Driver not revealed - sorry was just speaking in terms of writing! But this has been amended 

Fruitcake said:

It should time out after 6 months if a case in the Magistrates' Court has not been brought by then.
The driver can and the owner may be liable, but the keeper cannot where railway byelaws apply.

If the driver has been identified then you need to string this out past 6 months.

Who actually issued the PPN? Was it the TOC or an agent such as SABA?

Driver not identified - the ticket was just on the windscreen - not seen said CCTV footage and nothing through the post received - presumably as sent email to prove train was used)

PPN issued by Northern Railway 

Umkomaas

Northern Railway have been the 'stand-out' TOC to prosecute their own cases through the Mags Court, most others faff around with the likes of SABA and APCOA. 

The Mags Court can issue penalties of up to £1,000 (perhaps dependant on what the byelaws say) and you might need to seek legal advice from a solicitor. I don't think you can defend the case using the standard forum defence procedures. 

Get hold of a copy of the byelaws (Google will be your starting point) to read the detail. See what other regulars say about defending your case. 

carolinen07

Umkomaas said:

Northern Railway have been the 'stand-out' TOC to prosecute their own cases through the Mags Court, most others faff around with the likes of SABA and APCOA. 

The Mags Court can issue penalties of up to £1,000 (perhaps dependant on what the byelaws say) and you might need to seek legal advice from a solicitor. I don't think you can defend the case using the standard forum defence procedures. 

Get hold of a copy of the byelaws (Google will be your starting point) to read the detail. See what other regulars say about defending your case. 

Railway Byelaws and parking

Typically, parking companies use contract law to enforce parking on private land. The idea is that they display signage indicating the terms and conditions, and by the act of parking, the driver accepts them (acceptance by performance). However, on railway land some operators use the Railway Byelaws to issue parking tickets, rather than contract law. Section 14 of the Railway Byelaws specifically covers parking offences:

14. Traffic signs, causing obstructions and parking

1. No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall use it on any part of the railway in contravention of any traffic sign

  No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway:

in any manner or place where it may cause an obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using the railway; or

2. otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an Operator or an authorised person.

** These above do not apply **

2. No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall park it on any part of the railway where charges are made for parking by an Operator or an authorised person without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by an Operator or an authorised person at that place.

In England and Wales:

1. The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

2. Without prejudice to Byelaw 14(4)(i), any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be clamped, removed, and stored, by or under the direction of an Operator or authorised person.

3. The owner of the motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall be liable to an Operator or an authorised person for the costs incurred in clamping, removing and storing it provided that there is in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these Byelaws may be clamped, removed and stored by an Operator or an authorised person and that the costs incurred by an Operator or an authorised person for this may be recovered from the vehicle’s owner.

4. The power of clamping and removal provided in Byelaw 14(4)(ii) above shall not be exercisable in any area where passenger parking is permitted unless there is on display in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these Byelaws may be clamped and/or removed by an Operator or an authorised person.

Arguments in favour of not paying the PCN I have found 

2. Their so-called "penalty" is a home-made charge which is not legally enforceable. It is an offered contract, by which they promise not to prosecute you for a Byelaw breach in return for your payment of the requested money. Since there is no law forcing an offered contract to be accepted, then nobody has any legal obligation to pay their penalty charge. You are completely within your rights to wait to be prosecuted in the Magistrates Court. Probably will never happen since any fine imposed on you would be paid to the Government - the parking operator and the train company would get nothing, so they have nothing to gain.

3. Only the driver could ever be liable for a breach of Byelaws and you have no obligation to name the driver

4. Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply at train station car parks so there is no keeper liability. No possibility of transferring any liability from the driver to the keeper.

5.Only a Magistrate can decide whether or not a Byelaw was breached, not the parking operator nor the train company.

6. Byelaws say the owner *may* be liable but do not specify when the owner would actually be liable.

7. Byelaws only apply to persons while they are on railway assets. They would have to prove you were there at the time, otherwise the Byelaws cannot apply to you.

8. Being the keeper does not prove you were the owner.

9. There is no law making it a crime to be the owner of a vehicle parked in proven breach of Byelaws by someone else.

I don't want to be having to just leave it, as the Keeper (not the driver) I would rather reply and note the above directly to them and then if they decline a POPLA appeal can be submitted.

Shall I respond and ask what ByeLaw has been broken and to make them aware that as the Registered Keeper I am not responsible?

carolinen07

It also seems a lot of those that contacted Northern Railway have asked for the details of the driver before they have discussed it ... whereas there has been no request of that from them... I have never said 'I was in the car', or 'I have received'. My email to them was 'A PCN has been received, see attached rail ticket'. 

When I sent details of the train ticket, I have explained how I have taken a screenshot, but that again doesn't mean I was the driver - just the person sending the information. Which I was/am!>?

Fruitcake

I suggest you respond as keeper, as late as possible before the appeal deadline. Point out that as keeper you cannot be held liable. Quote the applicable byelaws; state that the PoFA 2012 does not apply as railway property is not relevant land, and instruct them to contact the driver direct.
If the keeper was not the driver then say so, but don't tell anyone, including this forum, if that is not the case.

As I said earlier, you need to drag this out past 6 months. I think this is covered by the Magistrate's Act so have a look at that.

carolinen07

Fruitcake said:

Thanks Fruitcake! Always on hand for a few of these issues! 

They’ve requested payment 14 days from their email Tuesday 5th so I will wait until then and mention the below and (probably) update the forum again. 

Thanks everyone – it’s frustrating the amount of money they request and how they can get away with it when the wording is rather vague

Really appreciate it! 

carolinen07

Fruitcake said:

I suggest you respond as keeper, as late as possible before the appeal deadline. Point out that as keeper you cannot be held liable. Quote the applicable byelaws; state that the PoFA 2012 does not apply as railway property is not relevant land, and instruct them to contact the driver direct.
If the keeper was not the driver then say so, but don't tell anyone, including this forum, if that is not the case.

As I said earlier, you need to drag this out past 6 months. I think this is covered by the Magistrate's Act so have a look at that.

Evening, 

Updated question / reassurance - particularly you Fruitcake as it’s in line with your advice...(Sorry :P) 

It will be (tomorrow) the 14th day (of the 14 days)  in which they have requested the payment of £50, as they deem that the ticket was issued correctly and so the payment still outstands.

Aware that there is 28 days to appeal to POPLA from the date the operator has declined (so a further 28 days) however - does this still apply if there hasn’t been a Notice To Keeper sent?  As in would the 28 days count from the decline email that has been received (Noting in the emails there has been no mention of driver or keeper, or no confirmation from them to confirm I am either…)

Therefore, do I send a response noting that I, as Keeper, cannot be held liable and so they need to contact the driver directly. Then this will trigger an appeals process and allow the driver to make their appeal? 

Hopefully this makes sense!!!! 

Fruitcake

carolinen07 said:

Fruitcake said:

I suggest you respond as keeper, as late as possible before the appeal deadline. Point out that as keeper you cannot be held liable. Quote the applicable byelaws; state that the PoFA 2012 does not apply as railway property is not relevant land, and instruct them to contact the driver direct.
If the keeper was not the driver then say so, but don't tell anyone, including this forum, if that is not the case.

As I said earlier, you need to drag this out past 6 months. I think this is covered by the Magistrate's Act so have a look at that.

Evening, 

Updated question / reassurance - particularly you Fruitcake as it’s in line with your advice...(Sorry :P) 

It will be (tomorrow) the 14th day (of the 14 days)  in which they have requested the payment of £50, as they deem that the ticket was issued correctly and so the payment still outstands.

Aware that there is 28 days to appeal to POPLA from the date the operator has declined (so a further 28 days) however - does this still apply if there hasn’t been a Notice To Keeper sent?  As in would the 28 days count from the decline email that has been received (Noting in the emails there has been no mention of driver or keeper, or no confirmation from them to confirm I am either…)

Therefore, do I send a response noting that I, as Keeper, cannot be held liable and so they need to contact the driver directly. Then this will trigger an appeals process and allow the driver to make their appeal? 

Hopefully this makes sense!!!! 

Has the ToC mentioned ADR at all on either the NTD or response to the traveller's email? They don't have to use PoPLA, but they do have to tell you what ADR is available if/when they reject your initial appeal, and any applicable deadlines.

The ADR Act actually states it should be not less than twelve months after a rejection by the company, but PPCs, being unregulated, ignore this and only allow a few weeks. It will be interesting to see what the ToC says.

As C-m says, forget 14 days. It is irrelevant. Concentrate on getting the initial appeal to the ToC as close to the appeal deadline, then see what they say in response.