Poor start up from cold. Diesel engine.

Goudy

Yeah, I had the 2.0 TDCi 130hp version in an X Type estate many moons ago and I tracked down this very same fault with that, along with a long list of other faults!

The engine fires up as quick as it ever does (glow plugs ok), but it stumbles, shakes and chugs until you can coax the throttle enough to raise the engine speed a bit, then it will run ok.

Back in the day I got hold of some early tech bulletins from Ford regarding recalibrating injectors after 80k or so.
Seems the software can't quite cope with the results of wearing injectors, as they start to spill off more the rail pressure drops.
The early bulletins suggested recalibrating and recoding them, but most dealers just replaced them with new or refurbished ones, quite often they replaced the HP pumps as well.

As rail pressure is quite low anyway when the engine is cranked on the starter motor, it just can't quite deliver enough fuel to sustain even running as the excess leak off is now bleeding off the rail pressure, once you coax the rpm up the rail pressure is enough (for now) to run smoothly.

Eventually the reduction in rail pressure starts messing with the fuel delivery under high load as well.
Open up the throttle hard and the IMV on the pump starts to complain as it can't open far enough to sustain enough rail pressure.
This causes the glow plug light to flash as that particular dash light is also the fuel system warning light, which is why most think it's a glow plug issue, they also trip into limp mode and throw a P0251 DTC.

Of course an actual fuel leak, say from the hard line unions will have the same result as would a duff fuel filter.
The spill off returns also need to be well sealed, the spill off is returned to the fuel filter and not the tank, so air entering this will go around and around and not bleed off.

Did you pre fill the filter with fuel before fitting it and the unions to it are nice a snug?
I also think Bosch did a ecomony filter marked "E" which these fuel systems didn't like, the original was a Deplhi.

Norman_Castle

JustAnotherSaver said:

I've plugged Forscan in and it says (with dash cam, heaters & radios turned off) the voltage is 11.8v-11.9v. I had a 12v USB adapter in the other day and when the car was running it was reading something like 14.0v-14.1v.

11.8v is very low. Charge the battery fully, it may not solve your problem but should help the battery last longer. I wouldn't trust a lighter socket voltmeter. Mine reads 12.3v, multimeter in the socket reads 12.7v. Does your Forscan read voltage with the engine running?

JustAnotherSaver

Goudy said:

Did you pre fill the filter with fuel before fitting it and the unions to it are nice a snug?
I also think Bosch did a ecomony filter marked "E" which these fuel systems didn't like, the original was a Deplhi.

I didn't do the fuel filter myself. I had it booked in for the MOT last year & just left the fuel filter in & asked the mechanic to sort it. I've just checked my emails as to which filter it was and i was wrong when i said Bosch:

" Delphi Diesel Fuel Filter HDF924 - BRAND NEW - GENUINE - 5 YEAR...
"

That's the filter. What you describe sounds pretty much like i'm experiencing. If the car dies then it dies.

Currently eyeing potential replacements but it's difficult as I can't see anything out there that really does it for me. Looking at the 1.4 TSI Golf on around 2010 ish or an Astra K 1.6 turbo but the car is likely to be out of my budget at the moment. Want to stay away from 'big' cars so that rules out plenty. Did have a thought about the BMW 330D for a split second but decided it probably wasn't worth the risk.

coffeehound said:

Out of interest, how much does it cost to replace glowplugs and injectors? Are they hard to access?

From what I've read the glow plugs aren't that bad on this engine. It's whether you have the balls to do it yourself. Everything goes well - no problem. One snaps - oh dear.

And I don't have the balls.

Injectors from memory aren't cheap though. Not unless you can do all the coding yourself & you're basically just paying for new injectors & doing everything else yourself.

Goudy

Delphi also make a HDF924E, the E is the budget version that has been know to cause a few issues.

Try the obvious first.
Check the battery and charging system, these will have an effect on the crank speed at start up, which effects the rail pressure if it's too slow.
Make sure the battery is in good nic and the alternator is healthy (outputting around 14.4V).

If there's a few leaks from the hardline unions or spill off pipes/connectors, sort them.
The hardline pipe unions from the rail to the injectors might nip up a bit, but don't force them.

The spill off unions use a plastic clip that attaches to the side of the injectors, if in doubt, replace the pipes and clips, they only cost peanuts.

Check the connectors to the fuel filter are fitted properly. They should push/snap onto the filters ports.They can be a bit fiddly but you usually know they are on properly when they click.

If you have the diagnostic software, log the rail pressure at start up and at idle.
I can't remember what is should be, but a search of the Ford forums might help.

Once running, rev it and log if the IMV is operating, these have been known to develop faults.

Another thing that might cause a similar issue is EGR valve.
If it's suck open it'll choke the engine of air.
As a test, you can cobble up a blank from some metal and slip it into the joint between the feed pipe and the valve itself to block the exhaust feed.
There should be a thin metal gasket in that joint you can use as a template.

Before you consider messing with the injectors, you really need a leak off test ran on them.
This measures what each injector spills off when running, you can diy a test which might tell you if one or two are excessive but you really need to know what sort of returns are common to get a good overall impression of what condition they are in as a whole.

This is one I cobbled up many years ago.
https://www.jaguarforum.com/threads/diesel-leak-off-test-guide.60446/

Ganga

I would remove the glow plugs and test them ,all you need is a set of jumper leads and a battery ,connect the jump leads to the battery keeping the other ends apart ,.clamp the body of the glow plug in one of the jump lead ends and touch the other jump lead end to the contact end of the glow plug ,see if it heats up and glows ( turns red like an electric fire ) check all four .
If they ok check the wiring to the plugs in the engine bay.

Rolandtheroadie

  I've always tested glow plugs using a test meter. Unplug, meter set to ohms, one end on the end of the glow plug, other end to the engine.

JustAnotherSaver

For £50 I'd change the glow plugs myself ... if the horror stories of snapping glow plugs didn't put me off.

I've had a couple mechanics not really want to touch it and right now i'm booking my car in through work at a garage to look at the plug situation.

In the meantime....

I've been keeping a close eye on it this week. I've used one of those USB 12v sockets that tell you the voltage.

Now i know i know - people say don't use them as a rule, they're not so reliable. I'm not saying these people are wrong, in fact they're probably totally correct.

HOWEVER ... I'm noticing a pattern.

When i turn the ignition on, if the display on the 12v USB reads 11.8v for example, the car will struggle for the initial 10 seconds.

Other times when I turn the ignition on, it will read 12v ish, maybe 12.1v but in and about that. Certainly 12.x volts. When i turn the key from this reading and start it up, there's no issue whatsoever.

So while it may not be the most accurate, it's displaying a pattern.

Now this week i've had some time off and I've gone to the gym in the morning. I come to leave 60-90mins later and take today for example -

I turned the ignition on, it said 11.8v so I knew i was going to have a problem.

As I started the car it quickly drops to 9.something volt, then goes up, 10.something, 11.something slowly gets to 12.something and then approx 10 seconds as I say ... gets to 14.1 volt and you can hear the difference in the car then - power comes back and I can drive away.

Today was a little different in that I drove say 0.1-0.2 mile, got stopped at the lights and the voltage dipped to 11-12v from 14 (and you could hear it running rougher). I blipped the accelerator pedal and it came back up to 14 and ran ok again. Let off and started to dip but then the lights hit green and away I went. The car was then fine.

Now I don't want to buy a battery if it's not the battery as they're not cheap.

Likewise alternator.

Glow plugs are somewhere in the region of £50 which I don't have a problem with - but if it's not these then I don't want to be buying new ones.

And if it's the injectors, which based on my luck I'm going to say it's probably going to be, then the car is going up for sale.

Bottom line, if it's a cheap enough fix then i'll keep it and get it put right. If it's the expensive fix then I don't want to run through all the cheaper fixes for no reason.

As it only happens on start up I can't really take it to someone and say here have a look - as by that point the car will be running fine.

So is there a way to 100% rule out battery/alternator at least (that doesn't involved leaving my car with someone)?

Rolandtheroadie

First, on start up, with those readings, the battery hasn't got enough ooomph.

 And from the drops in voltage, for me, it's pointing to the alternator. Only thing I'd query is it coming good again.

 Might be worth checking all the alternator connections for corrosion and tightness first. 

 I like 12.4v or slightly more when going to start my cars, and over 14v constant when running. 

coffeehound

How about use jump leads to hook up to another car and see if the problem is still there?  That could at least eliminate battery/alternator

JustAnotherSaver

@Rolandtheroadie Yeah I gather that (your first comment). When I see the USB 12v thing putting out numbers like 11.8v, as inaccurate as using that method may be, I know i'm going to have an issue for 10 seconds or so after start up - and sure enough, I do.

The thing is, if it did that each and every time then you could say fair enough as there's a constant pattern, but it doesn't. Take this morning for example - I started the car up on my drive and not a problem whatsoever. Drove to the gym. Came to leave the gym about 90mins later and it was reading 11.8v .... problem.

"Ah but how far did you drive to the gym" .... well just in case that one gets asked, fair enough it's short distance but let's apply it to my travel to work.....

25-30mins, plenty 5th gear use at 50-60mph and then I come to leave work some 10 hours or so later .... some times have trouble, some times I don't.

Thanks for the pointer on the alternator though. When it's booked in I'll ask them to pay attention around that area.

@coffeehound - so jumping off another car would eliminate battery?

Only thing with that is - i never know when it's going to act up, so i would forever need to have another car to hand, and if it didn't act up then i wouldn't know whether that was due to the 2nd car or not - because there's no constant.

Though d'oh moment - i'd just do it when that 12v USB socket says 11.8v, which could be any time tbh.

Not sure if i mentioned earlier in the thread though as i posted at the start of the month - but I had the car on overnight charge a while back and it acted up on start up as soon as i took it off charge.